Yes, I let this limit myself

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Duothematic channel. Primary topic is virtual worlds/OpenSim, secondary topic is the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Follow me from Mastodon or anywhere else in the Fediverse.

Ort:: The Hypergrid

Geschlecht:: Männlich

Homepage:: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/profile/jupiter_rowland

Yes, I let this limit myself

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 00:35:30 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Fediverse Things that happen

show all 29 comments

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 03:21:18 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

Don't remember if Hubzilla had a workaround for this, but streams lets you add a summary as a bbcode tag. We don't do anything special with it, but Mastodon does.

I really wonder sometimes how the people who have an issue with eye contact manage to use the internet, or television, or mgazines, or... I'm truly sympathetic, but still... this world must be a very cruel place to them.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:36:16 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

I was looking up info about Content Warnings, and I came across a huge long discussion...

Mastodon should rename Content Warning to Content Note.
No, it should be Content Hint.
No, Content Note, because that's more in line with ActivityPub specs, and by the way Mastodon uses the Subject line from ActivityPub for Content Warnings.
No, Content Notice is better than Content Note. Here's an article about the difference between Notice and Note.
No, Content Wrapping.
No, rename Content Warning to Subject.
We can't use Content Notice because people will think CN means Chinese language.
No they won't, because ZH means Chinese language.
There shouldn't be any CW or CN letters at all, just an icon.
We should just have a Content Preview.
It's proven that trigger warnings have no effect.
Why is Mastodon conflating ActivityStreams "summary" and "sensitive"?
Go away, you're working on a non-Mastodon project so we don't care.

Hundreds of posts, on and on.

Well, I guess it keeps them busy so they don't actually make any changes.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:39:19 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:40:13 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

@Mike Macgirvin (dev)

Don't remember if Hubzilla had a workaround for this, but streams lets you add a summary as a bbcode tag. We don't do anything special with it, but Mastodon does.

I am trying the summary BBcode tags in Hubzilla. It puts "View Summary" and when you click on it, it displays whatever is between those tags. Does it work like that in Streams and Mastodon?

This is a summary.

Artikel ansehen

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:45:20 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

I don't see it doing anything in (streams). The sentence "This is a summary" is just displayed like regular text.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:51:48 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

Does it disappear when you click on the "View Article" link? Do you have that link?

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:56:18 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

I did say -

We don't do anything special with it, but Mastodon does.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 05:57:15 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

No, (streams) shows neither "View Article" nor "View Summary", just the plain text.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 06:09:23 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

If I were posting from (streams) and trying to make Mastodon users happy, would I put a Content Warning at the top of my post inside BBCode 'summary' tags? (It looks like that would work for Hubzilla users.)

Sometimes I think I should get a Mastodon account just so I can see how my posts show up there. But so far, I've always come to my senses.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 06:54:35 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

to make Mastodon users happy, would I put a Content Warning at the top of my post inside BBCode 'summary' tags?

Yes.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:10:49 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Mike Macgirvin (dev)

Don't remember if Hubzilla had a workaround for this, but streams lets you add a summary as a bbcode tag. We don't do anything special with it, but Mastodon does.

Hubzilla still has a dedicated field in the post editor for it. So there are these fields, and this is how they translate to ActivityPub and Mastodon, from top to bottom:

Hubzilla	ActivityPub	Mastodon
Title	Title	÷
Summary	Abstract	Content Warning
Categories	÷	÷

(@Mastodon users who might come across this: This here is supposed to be a table, formatted with BBcode. I know you can't see it, but you aren't the target audience.)

I really wonder sometimes how the people who have an issue with eye contact manage to use the internet, or television, or mgazines, or... I'm truly sympathetic, but still... this world must be a very cruel place to them.

Someone actually confirmed to me that some autistic people are so sensitive that a tiny four-pixel-high speck in a very busy 800x533 image can already trigger them if it even vaguely looks like a person whose face is not concealed.

It's in this thread; just scroll down a few comments. To be more specific, it's this Mastodon toot.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:14:50 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:24:56 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Bill Statler I don't know if the post editor on (streams) has been slimmed down in comparison to Hubzilla. But on Hubzilla, you have four fields that unfold when you click the editor:

Title (optional) (not supported by Mastodon even though some people claim otherwise)
Summary (optional) (= content warning on Mastodon)
Categories (optional, comma-separated) (not supported by Mastodon)
Content (= the actual "toot", and any alt-text goes here, too)

But keep one thing in mind:

On Hubzilla and probably also (streams), the summary folds the whole post in. As in with everything in it, images and other media included.

Mastodon converts our embedded images into file attachments because that's all it understands. Then it leaves them dangling below the converted post. And the summary-gone-content warning does not fold them in.

You can't conceal a picture posted from Hubzilla or (streams) to Mastodon users. There's no way to do it. Not even a summary/content warning.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:47:26 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

You can't conceal a picture posted from Hubzilla or (streams) to Mastodon users. There's no way to do it. Not even a summary/content warning.

In streams, add a n-s-f-w hashtag.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:50:05 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:52:06 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

In ActivityPub The Summary field is called 'summary'. And the title is called 'name'.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:54:16 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Mike Macgirvin (dev) And that blanks out all pictures in the post, even after Mastodon has converted them into file attachments?

Even then, the downside is that you have to "flag" posts as N-S-F-W that aren't, just to protect sensitive Mastodon users from pictures in them.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 09:56:05 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

And again, I'm truly sympathetic. I just don't know any visual communications medium where they aren't going to get eye contact shoved in their face. I honestly don't know how they survive.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 10:10:13 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 10:10:35 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

I actually have no problem supporting the 'sensitive' attribute (which hides images). We already support it inbound. And if you want the ability for us to flag something 'sensitive' without tagging it not-safe-for-work, I don't mind. Really I don't. The only thing I have an issue with is using the 'summary' field for content warning.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 10:25:01 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

And that has been added to the streams repository. You can use #sensitive to trigger image hiding on streams or Mastodon or anything that supports the sensitive flag. Or you can use the not safe for work hashtag. We'll hide the images on this end if you've got safe mode turned on, and we won't if you don''t. The default is on.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 11:05:32 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Mike Macgirvin (dev) Yes, for one, it's misleading. Most Mastodon users don't even know that this field is actually for something else.

And besides, it shoves content warnings into the faces of those who don't need them. Even many Mastodon users say so, say that Mastodon overdoes CWs.

I think not exactly few of them say that filters would be a better solution. One which Mastodon already has. Everyone could set their individual filters, and since Mastodon 4.0, filters can optionally hide posts behind content warnings instead of removing them.

But I guess a lot of Mastodon users don't even know that these filters exist. Maybe too few mobile apps grant access to filter settings, and I know that many Mastodon users have never touched the Web interface.

On top of that, for your typical casual and non-techy Mastodon user, Mastodon's filters are too complicated. This is the one thing in which Hubzilla is actually easier to use than Mastodon, namely the N-S-F-W app vs Mastodon's filters. I've actually suggested preset filters for Mastodon on GitHub as a new feature. You'd click one checkbox, and anything regarding US politics or food or non-vegan food is hidden. To no avail so far, but I've tried.

Last but not least, the best filters only work if there is something to filter in the first place. You can filter hashtags all you want, but there are still too many people who can't stop using Mastodon like they used to use Twitter. And they've never used hashtags on Twitter because The Algorithm made them allegedly unnecessary.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 19:56:05 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

Maybe I'll write a FAQ on how to communicate with Mastodon users. ? It can start: "Mastodon is a SMS text message emulator that resembles X (Twitter) and federates using a non-standard modification of ActivityPub..."

I assume Mastodon ignores the 'spoiler' BBCode? I'm pondering how to combine 'summary' and 'spoiler' to maximize the number of platforms on which material is hidden behind a Content Warning.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 21:42:23 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Yep, Mastodon doesn't understand spoiler tags.

And maybe your FAQ should also mention that any post with more than 500 characters should both get a "content warning" CW: long and a #LongPost hashtag. Some people are quite sensitive when it comes to unusually long posts. Unusually for Mastodon anyway.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 22:09:16 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

Okay, I'll do that when I start seeing CW: short #ShortPost.

I'm contemplating where I want to draw the line on content warnings. I recognize that some people have strong emotional reactions that come from PTSD or phobias, and I'll try to be nice about things like that. (Although I had NO idea there was an eye contact phobia.)

If someone is merely annoyed because their corner of the Fediverse works differently from my corner of the Fediverse... no. I'm not going to assist with that sort of intolerance.

Sun, 01 Oct 2023 22:41:06 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

We do not transmit the spoiler code over ActivityPub, because it is implemented in Javascript, and does not federate outside Nomad and/or Zot. Same with maps and a number of other bbcode constructs. These have a dedicated section in the documentation "[your project] specific codes". You should be aware that none of these will work correctly outside our own sector of the federated universe and this probably needs to be spelled out in stronger language in the doco.

Thinking about this problem further and on a fresh day I think I may have an answer. When Mastodon creates a CW and puts it in the summary field, they also set 'sensitive' (which hides any images that may or may not exist).

So it seems we can probably define a "Mastodon CW" as (summary AND sensitive). Now we can separate it from other legitimate uses of summary as a summary and process those messages as a Mastodon quirk instead of as legitimate ActivityStreams.

You won't see any changes today, but this knowledge can be used to create content-warnings that work for everybody. The two biggest hurdles are that 1) Mastodon includes the summary in all followup comments - forcing you to needlessly open each one, and 2) if somebody uses the traditional not-safe-for-work tag and it also has a Mastodon content warning, you need to open it twice because the two independent mechanisms don't know about each other.

On the bright side, I think that the only changes we would need to make are completely contained in the not-safe-for-work addon; which already needed a serious upgrade.

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 09:27:51 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@A.min First of all, an explanation:

Some autistic people get triggered pretty heavily if someone in a picture looks at them. This "someone" can be a lot: an actual human being, an anthropomorphic animal, an actual animal, a robot, whatever. Or a picture thereof in the picture.

Some are only triggered by someone looking directly at the camera. Some are triggered by someone looking vaguely into their direction. Some are triggered as soon as even only a bit of face or eye is visible. And sometimes, even "visible" becomes a stretch when an autistic person understands from the context that a sub-pixel-size blotch has to be a face and is triggered by it.

On Mastodon, you can put a content warning "CW: eye contact" or "CW: ec" into the content warning field which is the same as the summary field on (streams). Also, on Mastodon, if there's anything in that field, pictures attached to native Mastodon toots are automatically flagged sensitive and blanked out.

Unfortunately, Mastodon does not do that just as automatically with pictures coming in embedded into Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams) posts. They remain in plain sight. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) hide images along with the post in a summary. Mastodon, however, only hides the post under a summary-gone-content warning, but not the pictures.

On Friendica, Hubzilla and all (streams) versions up until 23.09.xx, there is no way to hide these pictures from Mastodon users at all. You can only post them in plain sight for all Mastodon users or not at all unless you have another way of avoiding them getting onto Mastodon.

Starting with (streams) 23.10.xx, you can flag pictures as sensitive on (streams) itself in a way that Mastodon understands: You add either the hashtag #nsfw (only use this if what you've posted is actually not safe for work) or the hashtag #sensitive. (streams) automatically flags all images embedded into the post as sensitive, and Mastodon blanks them out.

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 09:47:07 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Mike Macgirvin (dev) And I've filed a feature request over on Hubzilla to include this functionality.

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 11:41:20 +0200

hosh

hosh@hub.vikshepa.com

@Jupiter Rowland If Hubzilla posts are shared with "friends only" in the permission settings, so, even if we have the AP protocol addon enabled, someone outside of our "friends" circle cannot see those posts anyway, right?

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 12:27:47 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@hosh AFAIK, this only controls who receives your posts directly.

But recipients on ActivityPub-based projects such as Mastodon can boost them all they want. Friendica users can share them all they want. And I think even the permissions system doesn't keep Hubzilla or (streams) users from sharing them.

So all your posts and comments may be boosted to someone on e.g. disabled.social.

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 12:37:01 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

Mon, 02 Oct 2023 12:58:02 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

Not completely accurate. Every project I know prevents boosting/sharing protected content. Hubzilla does, Mastodon does. Once it leaves your site or your immediate control you cannot completely control what happens, but generally speaking, a circle of friends is "reasonably" safe. I wouldn't post military secrets in a circle, but you'd be foolish to post military secrets on the internet, and especially not in a social networking application.

The biggest problem we have with circles is that Mastodon folks replying to one share their reply with all their followers by default. But their followers only see the reply and typically can't see the rest of the conversation - unless somebody screenshots it and posts the screenshot or some other nefarious behaviour. So nothing is perfect, but things you post in a circle have reasonably protected visibility - even on ActivityPub - unless your friends can't be trusted to begin with.