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Hubzilla's unlimited character count; CW: Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta
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vor 1 Jahr
one could say it leads to people writing over-long posts, but looking closer that's not true. some people write very long posts, sometimes, and if that's too long or not, different readers will have different opinions. but it's much easier to read one long post, in one piece, than spread over a thread of several 500-character-installments, as happens in mastodon.
@phanisvara (streams) Yes, but many Mastodon users can't stand to see posts with over 500 characters. Not only do they refuse to read "long" posts, but some actually block anyone who exceeds 500 characters in a post even only once.
I'm pretty sure some ask their Mastodon instance admins to deal with such people. Have them blocked instance-wide. Have their whole Hubzilla hub blocked on that Mastodon instance.
Or they try to use Mastodon's report feature to report that Hubzilla user to the admin of that Hubzilla hub, or they have their admin try and get into contact with the admin of that Hubzilla hub, just to have that Hubzilla user sanctioned for breaking some unwritten Mastodon etiquette by posting over 500 characters in one chunk.
Of course, they fail in both cases. Hubzilla doesn't support Mastodon's report feature, and mentioning Hubzilla users, in this case the admin, in a public post won't work either. Verdict: That Hubzilla hub is unmoderated and therefore has to be blocked or even out-right Fediblocked.
On the grounds of the assumption that Hubzilla works exactly like Mastodon. Which I'm trying to debunk with this series of posts.
As at least one of my polls has revealed, there seems to be a not insignificant number of Mastodon users who demand posts with over 500 characters be banned absolutely everywhere in the Fediverse. Including in conversation between users on other projects, regardless of whether overly long posts from that conversation might leak into Mastodon or not.
And, of course, there's the Mastodon police that try to urge non-Mastodon users to limit their posts to a maximum of 500 characters, regardless of whether they're aware that the user in question is on something else than Mastodon or not. They're fully convinced that Mastodon was here first, and all the other projects are intruders in Mastodon's Fediverse and have to follow Mastodon's rules.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterCount #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #Mastodon
I'm pretty sure some ask their Mastodon instance admins to deal with such people. Have them blocked instance-wide. Have their whole Hubzilla hub blocked on that Mastodon instance.
Or they try to use Mastodon's report feature to report that Hubzilla user to the admin of that Hubzilla hub, or they have their admin try and get into contact with the admin of that Hubzilla hub, just to have that Hubzilla user sanctioned for breaking some unwritten Mastodon etiquette by posting over 500 characters in one chunk.
Of course, they fail in both cases. Hubzilla doesn't support Mastodon's report feature, and mentioning Hubzilla users, in this case the admin, in a public post won't work either. Verdict: That Hubzilla hub is unmoderated and therefore has to be blocked or even out-right Fediblocked.
On the grounds of the assumption that Hubzilla works exactly like Mastodon. Which I'm trying to debunk with this series of posts.
As at least one of my polls has revealed, there seems to be a not insignificant number of Mastodon users who demand posts with over 500 characters be banned absolutely everywhere in the Fediverse. Including in conversation between users on other projects, regardless of whether overly long posts from that conversation might leak into Mastodon or not.
And, of course, there's the Mastodon police that try to urge non-Mastodon users to limit their posts to a maximum of 500 characters, regardless of whether they're aware that the user in question is on something else than Mastodon or not. They're fully convinced that Mastodon was here first, and all the other projects are intruders in Mastodon's Fediverse and have to follow Mastodon's rules.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CharacterCount #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #Mastodon
As at least one of my polls has revealed, there seems to be a not insignificant number of Mastodon users who demand posts with over 500 characters be banned absolutely everywhere in the Fediverse.
i'm not sure how representative this poll of your's was. assuming your findings are correct, that there is a large number of people demanding the whole fediverse stick to mastodon rules, i'm afraid we'll have to do without them, and they without us. obviously i won't subscribe to some arbitrary rules i don't support, and won't even try to convince fanatics that their view of the world is wrong.
@jupiter_rowland
So that sounds like the reasonable solution to the problem.
If a user doesn’t want long posts, let them avoid long posts.
That leaves the rest of us free to enjoy those, and we all get the experiences we want.
@phani
So that sounds like the reasonable solution to the problem.
If a user doesn’t want long posts, let them avoid long posts.
That leaves the rest of us free to enjoy those, and we all get the experiences we want.
@phani
that's fine when it applies to those who ban users from their own timelines for writing too long, too short, or other communication styles they don't like. it becomes a problem when admins of large instances get involved, banning this or that behavior.
i've seen this happen recently, when very popular accounts were shadowbanned, i.e., their posts excluded from searches, on a large mastodon instance because a few users complained about them.
the fediverse isn't really decentralized; a few large instances account for most of the user base. because mastodon doesn't have any privacy controls except banning users or whole servers, those are used liberally. someone feels disturbed by what you write, or how you write, complains about you, bam, you're banned.
i've seen this happen recently, when very popular accounts were shadowbanned, i.e., their posts excluded from searches, on a large mastodon instance because a few users complained about them.
the fediverse isn't really decentralized; a few large instances account for most of the user base. because mastodon doesn't have any privacy controls except banning users or whole servers, those are used liberally. someone feels disturbed by what you write, or how you write, complains about you, bam, you're banned.
@volkris In the long run, however, it's bad.
It'll lead to wide-spread segregation of not only single Mastodon users, but entire instances from users that regularly post over 500 characters and instances with such users.
To say that's inconvenient puts it mildly, seeing as the secondary topic of my Hubzilla channel is the Fediverse in general and educating Mastodon users about the Fediverse outside of Mastodon in particular. If these very same Mastodon users can't read my posts anymore because someone else on their instance has talked their instance admin into blocking either my channel or the entirety of hub.netzgemeinde.eu, calling it inconvenient is an understatement.
It also makes explaining that "the Metaverse" is neither Zuckerberg's invention nor dependent on blockchains, cryptocurrencies and NFTs, and that decentralised 3-D virtual worlds have been around for over a decade and a half, much more difficult. And that's the primary topic of this channel.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
It'll lead to wide-spread segregation of not only single Mastodon users, but entire instances from users that regularly post over 500 characters and instances with such users.
To say that's inconvenient puts it mildly, seeing as the secondary topic of my Hubzilla channel is the Fediverse in general and educating Mastodon users about the Fediverse outside of Mastodon in particular. If these very same Mastodon users can't read my posts anymore because someone else on their instance has talked their instance admin into blocking either my channel or the entirety of hub.netzgemeinde.eu, calling it inconvenient is an understatement.
It also makes explaining that "the Metaverse" is neither Zuckerberg's invention nor dependent on blockchains, cryptocurrencies and NFTs, and that decentralised 3-D virtual worlds have been around for over a decade and a half, much more difficult. And that's the primary topic of this channel.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
@phanisvara (streams) Worse yet, you don't even notice if someone complains about you or has you banned.
That usually involves mentioning your channel. But unlike Mastodon users, users of Hubzilla or (streams) are not notified about being mentioned by random people by default, read, usually not at all.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
That usually involves mentioning your channel. But unlike Mastodon users, users of Hubzilla or (streams) are not notified about being mentioned by random people by default, read, usually not at all.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
vor 1 Jahr
That usually involves mentioning your channel. But unlike Mastodon users, users of Hubzilla or (streams) are not notified about being mentioned by random people by default, read, usually not at all.
i know, and that's one of the reasons i do get notified when strangers mention me. the other reason is my thick skin, not getting disturbed easily. i block individual strangers if or when the need arises, rather than all of them, on the chance they might bother me.
If these very same Mastodon users can't read my posts anymore because someone else on their instance has talked their instance admin into blocking either my channel or the entirety of hub.netzgemeinde.eu, calling it inconvenient is an understatement.
that's the beauty as well as the ugliness of the fediverse. we all can do what we want, but it isn't practical for everyone to host their own instance. the easiest way to join is to pick one of the mega-instances and people soon forget that what they see from there isn't the whole world, or fediverse.
that's why i like your effort to educate; even if not everyone can see it, or is interested in reading it, this will slowly propagate and raise some awareness of the world outside mastodon.
vor 1 Jahr
I don't understand the problem Mastodon users have with longer posts. As a rule, these are cut off in the Mastodon timeline after 500 (or the set limit) characters and a "Read more" link is displayed.
Someone MUST read it... and it doesn't make the timeline any "fuller".
Someone MUST read it... and it doesn't make the timeline any "fuller".
@jupiter_rowland I don't think the text is properly shortened in the official Android app.
@Stefan Bohacek @Der Pepe (Hubzilla) That, and the typical Fediverse experience nowadays is a) Mastodon while barely or not at all knowing anything else exists and b) on a phone through a dedicated app.
The average Fediverse user doesn't start by joining Hubzilla on a desktop or laptop computer. They're fed up with Twitter and what became of it. They're told about Mastodon and the Fediverse which is implied to them to be one and the same thing.
So they grab their phones, they "install Mastodon" (the official app; they've never in their lives used any online platform through an app that doesn't have the same name as the platform), and they register an account. On mastodon.social.
For at least the first three months, the Fediverse to them is Mastodon. Vanilla Mastodon with no more features than what Mastodon 3.x had. They actually think 500 characters are a lot, and they cannot imagine for the lives of them that it's possible for posts with more posts to exist in the Fediverse. How could they possibly? The Fediverse is only Mastodon, after all.
Needless to say that they're deeply shocked and disturbed once they come across a post that does anything they took for absolutely impossible in the Fediverse. It's usually 500 characters, regardless of whether they come from Glitch or Misskey or Hubzilla.
At this point, they've gotten used to the Fediverse not allowing for more than 500 characters, not having text formatting, not having quotes, not having quote-tweets etc. etc. and of course being Mastodon and only Mastodon. And then this happens.
Those who are still on the official app are the poorest saps. The official Mastodon app is mercilessly hard-coded against vanilla Mastodon only with absolute and staunch disregard of the existence of anything else in the Fediverse. It totally refuses to take the existence of both Mastodon forks and non-Mastodon projects into account because that'd mean that Mastodon acknowledges the existence of Fediverse projects that have features that Mastodon a) lacks and b) flat-out refuses to introduce. So those on the official app get all long posts slammed right into their faces in the shape of unshortened walls of text.
Granted, the official Web front-end isn't that much better. It does fold long posts in. But it only folds posts in if they're ca. 2,000 characters or longer, and then it folds them in to ca. 1,500 characters.
Still, long posts can upset Mastodon users regardless of front-end. They're something that these users didn't expect. Something they don't want. Something they say doesn't belong into Mastodon and therefore into the Fediverse. Something that must be abolished.
For some even something they're willing to fight against until it's gone from the Fediverse, until the Fediverse is again what they thought it was when they were new: only vanilla Mastodon with only vanilla Mastodon's capabilities.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #500Characters
The average Fediverse user doesn't start by joining Hubzilla on a desktop or laptop computer. They're fed up with Twitter and what became of it. They're told about Mastodon and the Fediverse which is implied to them to be one and the same thing.
So they grab their phones, they "install Mastodon" (the official app; they've never in their lives used any online platform through an app that doesn't have the same name as the platform), and they register an account. On mastodon.social.
For at least the first three months, the Fediverse to them is Mastodon. Vanilla Mastodon with no more features than what Mastodon 3.x had. They actually think 500 characters are a lot, and they cannot imagine for the lives of them that it's possible for posts with more posts to exist in the Fediverse. How could they possibly? The Fediverse is only Mastodon, after all.
Needless to say that they're deeply shocked and disturbed once they come across a post that does anything they took for absolutely impossible in the Fediverse. It's usually 500 characters, regardless of whether they come from Glitch or Misskey or Hubzilla.
At this point, they've gotten used to the Fediverse not allowing for more than 500 characters, not having text formatting, not having quotes, not having quote-tweets etc. etc. and of course being Mastodon and only Mastodon. And then this happens.
Those who are still on the official app are the poorest saps. The official Mastodon app is mercilessly hard-coded against vanilla Mastodon only with absolute and staunch disregard of the existence of anything else in the Fediverse. It totally refuses to take the existence of both Mastodon forks and non-Mastodon projects into account because that'd mean that Mastodon acknowledges the existence of Fediverse projects that have features that Mastodon a) lacks and b) flat-out refuses to introduce. So those on the official app get all long posts slammed right into their faces in the shape of unshortened walls of text.
Granted, the official Web front-end isn't that much better. It does fold long posts in. But it only folds posts in if they're ca. 2,000 characters or longer, and then it folds them in to ca. 1,500 characters.
Still, long posts can upset Mastodon users regardless of front-end. They're something that these users didn't expect. Something they don't want. Something they say doesn't belong into Mastodon and therefore into the Fediverse. Something that must be abolished.
For some even something they're willing to fight against until it's gone from the Fediverse, until the Fediverse is again what they thought it was when they were new: only vanilla Mastodon with only vanilla Mastodon's capabilities.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #500Characters
@phani I’d say the issue of instance admins overexerting their authorities over users’ feeds is a much larger and more important issue that needs to be challenged head on, outside of the question of post length.
So many left platforms like #Twitter specifically to get away from that kind of meddling in news feeds, so it should be highlighted when it starts to show up here.
I always promote the norm of empowering users to make such decisions instead of leaving it to #Fediverse admins, giving users the tools they need.
It’s a cultural question, and all we can do is try to nudge the culture in the direction we think is better.
@jupiter_rowland
So many left platforms like #Twitter specifically to get away from that kind of meddling in news feeds, so it should be highlighted when it starts to show up here.
I always promote the norm of empowering users to make such decisions instead of leaving it to #Fediverse admins, giving users the tools they need.
It’s a cultural question, and all we can do is try to nudge the culture in the direction we think is better.
@jupiter_rowland