Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Duothematic channel. Primary topic is virtual worlds/OpenSim, secondary topic is the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Follow me from Mastodon or anywhere else in the Fediverse.

Ort:: The Hypergrid

Geschlecht:: Männlich

Homepage:: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/profile/jupiter_rowland

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:40:01 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

What if Mastodon could block Fediverse instances by type? CW: Fediverse meta

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Fediverse

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Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:43:47 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:44:41 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland Is there a part of the AP protocol for this at all?

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:54:50 +0200

Word of Mouth 🍄 :emacs:

notroot@notroot.online

What if Mastodon could block Fediverse instances by type? CW: Fediverse meta

Artikel ansehen

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 18:12:44 +0200

crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar

What if Mastodon could block Fediverse instances by type? CW: Fediverse meta

Artikel ansehen

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 18:30:50 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Wordsmurf of Mouthshire :emacs: ? ;)

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:41:24 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@_jayrope I don't think so.

But Mastodon can block users. Mastodon can allow or block instances by domain.

So it shouldn't be rocket science for Mastodon to check the instance type of an instance, just like it checks the domain, and then decide whether or not to allow local users to interact with it and whether or not to let content from that instance in.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:42:41 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@crossgolf_rebel ? on Calckey :calckey: Yes, chances are the proposal will find lots of proponents.

Worse yet, if good reasons for this feature are found, Mastodon might actually implement it, and instance admins might actually use the allowlist to block everything that isn't Mastodon.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:42:59 +0200

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@Jupiter Rowland Don't give them any strange ideas... ;-)

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:44:26 +0200

crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar

@jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu ?

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:46:50 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Wordsmurf of Mouthshire :emacs: ? This isn't so much about Threads. Threads is a monolith. You can block it by domain.

I was rather thinking of a blocklist in which an instance admin writes "friendica", and bam, all instances of Friendica are blocked, and the users on that instance are safe from Friendica's antics. Or an allowlist which only contains "mastodon", so not only Friendica is blocked as a whole, but so are Pleroma and its forks, Misskey and its forks, Hubzilla, Lemmy, /kbin...

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:48:16 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland I can block users and domains on Hubzilla, too.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:50:34 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland I don't get, what a positive use of your thought would be at all.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:51:00 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@_jayrope Now imagine Hubzilla had a blocklist in which you can write "mastodon", and bam, all thousands upon thousands of Mastodon instances blocked in one fell swoop, including all future Mastodon instances.

And/or an allowlist in which you can write "hubzilla", and bam, everything blocked that isn't Hubzilla. (streams) included.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:53:18 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland Yeah, sure, but why do this at all?

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:53:54 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland ...given that i can switch off all AP right away ;)

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:54:57 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@_jayrope Some Mastodon users, instance admins included, would love certain entire projects to be blocked, all instances of them, due to the "un-Mastodon-like" stuff coming from there. Friendica and Hubzilla first and foremost.

Others want the Fediverse to be only Mastodon.

This feature would allow them to achieve that without playing whack-a-mole with instance blocklists.

So from their POV, it'd be positive.

I myself just want to see the reactions.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:59:30 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@_jayrope You can, but Mastodon instance can't flick a switch, and everything that isn't Mastodon is defederated.

But many Mastodon users and even some Mastodon instance admins would love this to be possible.

A "Keep those Mastodon-hating Friendica people out" blocklist.

An anti-over-500-characters allowlist.

A "Fediverse = Mastodon" allowlist.

A wet dream of those Twitter refugees who shat bricks when they learned about the Fediverse not being Mastodon would finally come true.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:06:13 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland I know you think that. But i don't. I said it many times before, none of my Mastodon friends think that the rest of the Fediverse should be excludable.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:07:08 +0200

damon

damon@social.wedistribute.org

@jupiter_rowland @jrp

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:08:35 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@damon Well put!

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:09:43 +0200

damon

damon@social.wedistribute.org

@jupiter_rowland @jrp I don’t even think it’s them. It’s the early Mastodon users. Those that wanted harm to come to Ryan for daring to bridge Bluesky to Mastodon. Those falsely stating they only consented to Mastodon and ActivityPub, failing to realise there’s 14-17 bridges and protocols that make up the Fediverse.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:10:13 +0200

Chris Trottier

atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org

@jupiter_rowland @jrp Serious question: who actually wants to block everything that isn’t Mastodon?

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:47:26 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Chris Trottier Not everyone on Mastodon welcomes the rest of the Fediverse with open arms when they learn about it.

I mean, keep in mind that almost everyone who came over from Twitter to Mastodon in the last two years was not told that the Fediverse is more than just Mastodon. So they came here with the belief that Mastodon = the Fediverse and the Fediverse = Mastodon, and nothing can "ruin this paradise" for them. And a paradise it was to them, compared to even pre-Musk Twitter but more so to Musk's Twitter.

They settled into Mastodon nicely. They got used to Mastodon. All while not even expecting there to be more to the Fediverse than just Mastodon.

Some eventually learned the truth.

It may have been because they've clearly used "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" synonymously or implied or out-right claimed that certain features that Mastodon lacks aren't available in the Fediverse at all or something like that. And some reply guy from Friendica came along and told them there's more to the Fediverse than just Mastodon.

It may have been because they themselves found a post in their personal timeline that did stuff that's completely impossible on vanilla Mastodon. 500 characters. Or text formatting. Or a quote. Whatever. Maybe it simply got washed up in their timeline because one of their followers had boosted it. And they asked the poster, "Like, WTF is this witchcraft?! How do yo even DO this on Mastodon?" And the poster told them, "I'm not on Mastodon, I'm on Hubzilla, Hubzilla is not Mastodon, it isn't a Mastodon instance, it isn't even a Mastodon fork, it's independendent from Mastodon, but it's connected to Mastodon, yada yada yada."

Their reaction might have been, "There's more to the Fediverse than just Mastodon? And whatever is out there can do all that cool stuff that I've been wanting to do so long? Intriging! Tell me more!" Plus an instant follow request. Their first non-Mastodon connection.

But their reaction might just as well have been, "WTF?!? Nope! This is absolutely disturbing! I don't want ANY of this in the Fediverse! It was so nice and friendly and cosy with only Mastodon, and now there are these intruders! Make them go away!"

I'm not even kidding: I know someone whom a Mastodon user has blocked because he's on Friendica and not on Mastodon. To her, the Fediverse equalled Mastodon, full stop. To her, he was an evil black-hat hacker who used this evil black-hat hacker tool named Friendica to hack himself into her Mastodon.

I've recently learned that there are actually people who came over from Twitter to Mastodon around the time when Musk bought Twitter, and who definitely still believe the Fediverse is only Mastodon. And they've done so for almost a year and a half. They will shit bricks when they learn the truth.

Also, there are people who want certain features purged from the whole of the Fediverse.

First and foremost, posts with over 500 characters. It's often those who still use the official Mastodon app that can't fold long posts in whom long posts disturb, but not only them.

I've once run a poll on whether or not to CW posts with over 500 characters, and if so, how. One option was a total, Fediverse-wide ban on posts over 500 characters. One user actually voted for that. That's proof enough that this attitude is cold, hard reality.

Then there's text formatting. Or quote-posts; remember that quote-tweets are used on ? to harass members of minorities, and they've often escapted to Mastodon because it doesn't have quote-toots. Or quotes in general.

All stuff that vanilla Mastodon can't do. At least not out of the box without some fancy, non-standard 3rd party mobile app work for quote-toots. So it's all stuff that some people want purged from the whole Fediverse.

If someone from Mastodon came to you and told you to stop posting over 500 characters or writing in bold type or italics, would you as an Akkoma user do so? In everything you'll ever post? If I guessed not, would I be correct?

See, Mastodon users can't convince users of Akkoma or Firefish or Sharkey or Friendica or Hubzilla to make use of features that Mastodon doesn't have. They can't force them either. There's no way for Mastodon users to have these features removed from those other projects either.

So the only remaining way to get rid of these features at least on these Mastodon users' home instances is by blocking everything from which posts with these features come.

But how should this blocking be done? Instance by instance? That's a game of whack-a-mole. For each instance you block, you discover two more instances. And new instances are being launched all the time. User by user? That's even more tedious and even more of a game of whack-a-mole.

And this is the reason why this has never been attempted, much less actually carried out yet.

I mean, those who are used to being on non-Mastodon Fediverse projects like Akkoma or Misskey or Friendica or Hubzilla are also used to having thousands of characters to play with and all kinds of text formatting and bullet-point lists and quotes and quote-posts, sometimes even things like headlines or images embedded in posts.

It's only natural for them not to understand how those feel who only know Mastodon. But I've read enough Mastodon toots that I think I'm able to understand how they feel. And not exactly rarely, posts that do stuff impossible on Mastodon and/or clash with Mastodon's culture (which requires e.g. content warnings in the summary field, regardless of whether whatever you use has a better solution than that) make them feel disturbed.

That said, I'd say that right now the number of Mastodon users who actually demand everything that isn't Mastodon be Fediblocked is rather small. But make it possible, and tell them that it's possible, and more users will demand it.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Defederation #DefederationMeta

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:52:30 +0200

Chris Trottier

atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org

@jupiter_rowland I haven’t had anyone complain about long posts or text formatting for at least a year. Those who do see it tend to ask how I’m doing it, and then I tell them I’m not using Mastodon. And then they want to try it out. Hence why I created akkomane.social.

The last time I got a complaint, I told them that since I own my server, I’m entitled to do whatever I want with it. That ended the discussion.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:54:17 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:54:30 +0200

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@damon Whoever that is: Ignore, they won't succeed anyways, just hysterical blabla ;)

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 20:54:25 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@damon I know the threads you're referring to. Not only have I posted in both, but I've checked some of the profiles of the staunchest "Keep the Fediverse only Mastodon" protesters who clearly gave the impression of not knowing that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon, let alone more than ActivityPub.

Some joined in late October or in November 2022. Second Twitter migration wave.

So no, we aren't talking about the furries who have escaped Twitter in 2018 and made #awoo one of the most popular hashtags on Mastodon.

Had I mentioned all participants in the threads in my posts to give Mastodon just a little bit of Hubzilla's conversation model (remember, you can't follow threads on Mastodon, and Mastodon doesn't tell you about unread comments on posts you've already received), I think I might have caused a mass brick-shitting event by teaching many, many more Mastodon users that the Fediverse is not only more than Mastodon, but more than ActivityPub, and that I was literally writing to them via a Zot6-to-ActivityPub bridge right then.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 21:00:44 +0200

crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar

@atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org But they're still out there and I'm also familiar with such discussions, which have become rarer but never gone away.

And the "tough guys" don't care whether it's a server or not
@jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 21:05:12 +0200

Chris Trottier

atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org

@crossgolf_rebel @jupiter_rowland Not denying they’re out there. However, what are they going to do about it? If they want some sort of homogeneous Twitter-like platform that’s federated, there’s always Bluesky. In fact, I suspect that the majority of those “I just want Twitter” people have already migrated to Bluesky.

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 21:54:29 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 21:54:49 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Chris Trottier And then there are the "I want non-corporate, non-commercial Twitter, but I don't want anything to interfere with it" people.

CC: @crossgolf_rebel ? on Calckey :calckey:

Sun, 14 Apr 2024 22:25:21 +0200

crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

crossgolf_rebel@moppels.bar

@atomicpoet@atomicpoet.org Well, if an employee of Mastodon gGmbH writes to you that they are the leading "platform" in the fediverse and that they have the best features of all services, you should think about the fact that such attitudes also rub off on their users
@jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Mon, 15 Apr 2024 03:10:34 +0200

damon

damon@social.wedistribute.org

@jupiter_rowland That’s fair. I was just referring to some of the few I’ve seen that I know have been here since before then. I for sure wouldn’t down there’s people from the primary Twitter waves spewing the nonsense. I also no longer have those threads. It would’ve been good to have them to show someone who was in doubt of your post