Bug202412281508 contact role purpose unknown

2024-12-28 16:11:55

adminsforum@hubzilla.org

od schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 28 Dec 2024 16:12:20 +0100

Bug202412281508 contact role purpose unknown

It is personal opinion that functionality added without documentation nor quality assurance test, is a bug. Please ignore this post if disagreed.

When a 'connection' is added or the module 'connections' is selected, a dialogue window appears, to demand that the 'contact role' is assigned.

There is no explanation of the reason for the creation of this function, the intended behaviour, why it should be used.

show all 31 comments

2024-12-28 16:39:17

*_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

Please address your code bug assumptions to the code repository at framagit. Thanks.

• sent from #Hubzilla at #Fediverse.

2024-12-28 19:38:51

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

Do you mean this dialogue that appears after adding a connection?

Where is the error? After creating a connection, this dialogue is opened so that you can set the details of the contact. Not only the contact role, but also which of your profiles the contact should be able to see, filters and, if applicable, a privacy group.

2024-12-28 21:29:23

od@zotum.net

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

Where is the error?

There is no explanation of the reason for the creation of this function, the intended behaviour, why it should be used.

2024-12-28 21:42:20

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

The Hubzilla help system is currently being revised. The function will of course be explained in the next version of the help system. The current status of the revised help system can be found here: Help

And here is the explanation of the connection editor: Connection-Editor

It is therefore not a fault of Hubzilla, but merely a shortcoming of the current help.

2024-12-28 22:13:33

dynamic_hubzilla

dynamic@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ @od

I think Od raises a good point about the lack of interface clarity as to what this (and many other!) Hubzilla tools do. The general vibe I get from Hubzilla is that it is a very powerful tool but that knowing how to use it is a continual puzzle. This is the biggest reason why I don't recommend Hubzilla to others.

By way of comparison, I find Friendica much more user friendly.

With regard to the roles in particular, I think the dialog window would be improved if instead of saying "Select a role for contact" it said something more descriptive like "Roles determine what permissions you give to your contacts" and then above the pull-down just put the word "Role:"

A better help system would of course be useful, but being able to figure out what the interface does without continually referring to the manual would be useful too.

2024-12-28 22:32:39

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@dynamic_hubzilla

I don't see the problem. After creating a contact, the dialogue for contact editing opens. The default setting for the contact role, for example, is ‘Default’. The user who only wants to use Hubzilla as normal Fediverse access clicks the window away and everything works as expected. However, if you want to use the advantages of Hubzilla in terms of the rights system, you will have to familiarise yourself with it. Even with a short context help, as you have described as an example, he is not any wiser. Hubzilla actually works very well out-of-the-box. If you want to have the additional options, context help will never be enough... then only a look at the manual will help. That's the case with all software.

2024-12-29 03:18:41

dynamic_hubzilla

dynamic@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

You do recognize that it's a bit silly to tell me that Hubzilla is just as accessible as all other software when I've just stated that Friendica is much more user friendly, right?

2024-12-29 10:36:43

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@dynamic_hubzilla

I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not drawing a comparison between the user-friendliness of Friendica and Hubzilla (BTW: I personally don't find Friendica ‘self-explanatory’ in all its functions either). I was just saying that Hubzilla, if you want to use it as ‘normal’ access to the Fediverse, is also possible without extensive study of the manual. Contact roles, privacy groups, folders, websites, cates, wikis... These are all functions that go beyond normal Fediverse use. And to use them, you have to familiarise yourself with them. And that's not the case with other software (all kinds of... drawing programmes, word processors, spreadsheets, video editing programmes... list goes on and on) is no different. As soon as it goes beyond the basic functionality, you have to look at the documentation or search for tutorials.

And about the example that has now been labelled a ‘bug’ here (but still hasn't been reported as such in the bug tracker): If I had no idea about Hubzilla and used it as an alternative to Mastodon (or something), this dialogue would pop up the first time I connected. At first I would have no idea what this is supposed to do, but I wouldn't feel like looking for it in the manual either... So I click on the ‘X’ and the dialogue disappears. And... ... ... I realise that it doesn't matter at all. Hubzilla as a social network works as normal and the contact behaves exactly as I expect. And then, after using it for some time, I keep reading about how great Hubzilla's permissions system is. And maybe there are things that I don't want to grant to all contacts. So I read the manual and stumble across the connection editor. And suddenly I realise what it's for and maybe I'll use it straight away when I create new contacts.

2024-12-29 11:08:22

od@zotum.net

Another example of poor comprehension, empathetic failure and insufficient time to think deeply before reply.

The original question is about 'contact role'. It is not about 'connection editor'

To repeat: It is personal opinion that functionality added without documentation nor quality assurance test, is a bug. Please ignore this post if disagreed.

To add: the bugs as defined by this person alone will only be published within hubzilla. Again, please ignore this post and the author if disagreed.

Bugs are published as information only. Noone is forced or expected to read, reproduce, replicate. Again, please ignore these posts and the author if disagreed.

2024-12-29 12:03:08

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

Several points:

If the word ‘BUG’ appears in the SUPPORT forum, i.e. the forum in which Hubzilla users or people who may be interested in using Hubzilla can ask questions, report problems and give tips, I will of course take a look at it. It could really be a bug. Or it could be due to an operating error and I could give a tip. So I will not ignore posts in the support forum, no matter who it comes from.
If there is a bug, then it is irrelevant whether I ‘disagree’ with the error message. What does that even mean? Whether there is a bug or not does not depend on my agreement, but on facts and possibly reproducibility.
As already mentioned, this forum is visited by Hubzilla users and people interested in Hubzilla who want to seek help with problems that arise (and if they don't find any, ask for it) and who want to find out about Hubzilla, its functions, development, planned features or updates. If the forum is overflowing with bug reports, even though they are not bugs in the true sense of the word, they and the public will get the impression that Hubzilla is riddled with bugs... actually hardly usable... with other systems you don't find such a mountain of error messages. Now you write that you deliberately only publish your reports here in the forum. That's ok, because the bug tracker in the repo is also intended for real bugs. That's why I think it makes more sense not to call the title ‘Bugxxxxx’, but ‘Notexxxxx’ or ‘Questionxxxxx’ or ‘Messagexxxxx’, to avoid giving the wrong impression.
The function of the contact role is explained in the new documentation. But thanks for the ‘nudge’. I will expand the article in more detail because it is a little thin and requires too much understanding of Hubzilla's permissions system.

2024-12-29 13:27:51

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

Here is the updated help entry: Permissions - contact roles ( German)

2024-12-29 13:52:09

od@zotum.net

Thank you for the explanation of contact roles. It is the type of quality of information that should be provided with every function of the software.

People are of sufficient intelligence to decide for themselves whether the information in the forum is a bug or not a bug.

The higher priority is that information is published for all hubzillians to see. There is no logical reason for people not to appreciate that the forum is riddled full of information for (s)he to read and interpret themselves.

2024-12-29 14:07:36

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

I'm only concerned with the term "bug", which is used excessively in the forum, although it's more about requests. This conveys a skewed image of Hubzilla as ‘bug-infested’.

If you want to do me a favour, then please take a look at the entire help (especially the user manual) and see what else is ‘thinly’ explained there. Then write to me here in the forum or via DN or email (pepe@hubzilla.hu) and let me know if something is not explained clearly or not explained enough. I am also happy to answer questions about functions that I have not yet explained or have only explained in passing in the help. That would be a great help, because I am dependent on exactly this information in order to create the help as well as possible.

2024-12-29 14:28:56

dynamic_hubzilla

dynamic@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

I feel like we're having a disconnect over the importance of discoverability.

Hubzilla has systemic problems with basic features being difficult to find through the user interface.  Some really important stuff is on the upper left, some is on the upper right, and nearly everything is hidden away inside non-descript menus.  On the flip side, there are lots of features that are easy to trip over without understanding what they do.

I do take your point about how difficult interfaces don't necessarily qualify as "bugs", but I do think there are real issues.

I think Od's example is a case of features you can trip over easily but not know how to use.  Users may have been trained by corporate software to ignore pop-up windows, but really pop-ups shouldn't occur unless there is a specific action that needs to be taken.  At minimum, the user needs to choose between "Yes" and "No" or between "OK" and "Cancel."  Sometimes there's just an "OK" button, which basically means "please confirm you've read what's in this window."  In the general case of dialog windows I'm not sure that clicking the "X" does not have predictable behavior, but my baseline expectation is that it would behave more like "Cancel" than like "OK."

When you add a new contact on Hubzilla (something that is a challenge in itself because the interface includes no notes on how a handle should be formatted; certainly it was a surprise for me that the format is different from Mastodon), there is a tiny "Contact added" notification that appears and disappears almost immediately and is easy to miss.  Then the dialog window pops up.

A dialog window, as noted above, indicates that a user needs to take some action.  What action needs to be taken in this case?  Ah here's an instruction right in the dialog window, "Select a role for this contact."  Role?  What's a role?  Why do I need to select one?  In particular, why do I need to select a role when there seems to be only one option ("Default") available?  What does "Default" mean?  There are no configuration tools visible on the dialog window.  Instead there are two buttons.

The one of the left is labeled "Contact roles" and opens up the actual configuration interface for setting up new Roles.  It opens it up on an entirely new screen.  The configuration interface is fairly self-explanatory, but it *isn't* clear how to get back to the dialog for adding a new contact, and unless you've noticed the transient "User added" notification, it *still* isn't clear that a new contact has been added.  The way that I get back to the dialog is with the browser's "back" arrow (I'm not sure if there's a better way to return to the previous screen).

The button on the lower right (which is actually I think the more canonical place to look for the "important" button) shows "Compare permissions", which gives a glimpse of how very powerful Hubzilla is: a long list of permissions, with green checkmarks and red xs to indicate what the current settings are.  It almost looks like a user interface, but it isn't actually interactive at all.  There are two columns labeled "They" and "My".  Those labels are *almost* intuitive, but actually kind of confusing, particularly because all of the permissions have the word "my" in them.

Hubzilla is chock full of confusing and obscure interfaces like this.  It's not the *only* modern software with these kinds of problems (e.g. I find modern Microsoft Office extremely unpleasant to use, and I find Blender nearly impossible to figure out without a manual or tutorial), but there's definitely software out there that has easier feature discoverability (e.g. LibreOffice, Google docs).

I do understand that there are reasons to not change everything around, but I do think we should be willing to have conversations about the challenging aspects of this software.  Maybe the Hubzilla Support isn't the best forum, but it would be good to have *somewhere* that we can talk about it.

2024-12-29 15:22:49

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@dynamic_hubzilla

As far as the connection editor is concerned, I can only agree with you! It's a real disaster as far as the UX is concerned.

And I don't mean that it lacks context help, for example (that would be a feature that would be good for many Hubzilla functions), but the function of the editor dialogue itself.
You can only get rid of it by clicking on the ‘X’. That is unusual. Normally there would be an ‘OK’ and/or a ‘Cancel’ button that would also make the dialogue disappear again. A new user might think that the ‘Submit’ button marked by default would correspond to the ‘OK’ and make the dialogue disappear. But nope! It only transmits the selected settings for the contact and the dialogue remains open. This really needs to be reworked. An additional ‘Close’ or ‘Cancel’ button that simply closes the dialogue would be absolutely desirable.
The finger has been put in the right wound here.

2024-12-29 15:41:00

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

As far as the connection editor is concerned, I can only agree with you! It's a real disaster as far as the UX is concerned.

One of the points where (streams) could profit from the experiences with Hubzilla. Including the possibility to override contact roles and give certain permissions individually, one by one.

You can only get rid of it by clicking on the ‘X’. That is unusual. Normally there would be an ‘OK’ and/or a ‘Cancel’ button that would also make the dialogue disappear again. A new user might think that the ‘Submit’ button marked by default would correspond to the ‘OK’ and make the dialogue disappear. But nope! It only transmits the selected settings for the contact and the dialogue remains open. This really needs to be reworked. An additional ‘Close’ or ‘Cancel’ button that simply closes the dialogue would be absolutely desirable.

Maybe "Close", "Submit", "Submit and close". It can be useful for the editor to stay open after submitting.

2024-12-29 15:52:04

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

If I knew where this could be changed, I would get to work. It's not a big deal in terms of the programme.

2024-12-29 18:20:45

od@zotum.net

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

If I knew where this could be changed, I would get to work

A return to a high priority problem; poor documentation, which is related to a similar priority problem, insufficient programmers.

2024-12-29 19:55:21

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

Hubzilla is quite a large work. And originally, no emphasis was placed on documentation for developers. It is now highly complex and I simply don't have the time to familiarise myself with the systematics. Maybe I'll get round to familiarising myself with it in 2025.

2024-12-30 10:12:04

od@zotum.net

@dynamic_hubzilla

What's a role? Why do I need to select one?

In addition, it continues to be possible to close the dialogue window without completion of any selection, so the 'connection' is not assigned any 'contact role'. It is an annoyance that the person that decided to introduce this bug, provided no documentation and now we have two words ('connection' and 'contact') for the same entity.

There is another bug. For connections in a channel/profile _before_ introduction of this 'contact role' bug, a dialogue window repeatedly appears, telling the user (s)he must assign a 'contact role'. The bug is a silly idea because the hubzillian participant may be satisfied with the permissions _already assigned_ before the 'contact role' bug was introduced.

2024-12-30 11:06:47

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

I cannot reproduce this ‘error’. The standard contact role is always present and the default setting is that every new contact is automatically assigned to the ‘Standard’ contact role. The switch cannot simply be switched off so that no contact role can be assigned to a connection. To switch off the switch for ‘Standard’, you must create another contact role and switch the switch on for this role. This means that every time a contact is established, at least the ‘Standard’ contact role is assigned (unless the channel is set differently). New Hubzilla users do not even need to know what contact roles are, how they work and what they are used for.

2024-12-30 16:25:27

od@zotum.net

As written previously, behaviour of the 'contact role' bug is different for extant connections _before_ introduction of this bug.

2024-12-30 16:59:03

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

before introduction of this bug

Which Hubzilla version are you talking about here? In which version was it the case that ‘Standard’ was not automatically assigned as the contact role? I can't remember this for the life of me, although it may well have been the case at one time.

2024-12-30 17:21:00

od@zotum.net

The person who introduced this bug should know the versions "before" and "after", that were affected.

2024-12-30 17:33:47

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od

But we ALL want to know. This is a support forum intended to help everyone. It would be interesting for every user and admin to know which version did not work. What is the problem with simply naming the last version in which the default role was not automatically assigned and in which there were ‘role-less’ contacts?

2024-12-31 10:29:43

od@zotum.net

Sorry, do not know. It is a personal preference not to waste time constantly upgrading, updating, etc. to the latest version.
If the programmer cannot tell the forum the version that the 'contact role' bug was introduced, that is a software project management problem.

2024-12-31 11:31:34

RockyIII

rockyiii@huby.infozoo.de

@od for people like you we should add an option for paid support - would you be interested ?

2024-12-31 11:35:39

od@zotum.net

???
Good luck with your commercialisation efforts.

2024-12-31 11:40:26

RockyIII

rockyiii@huby.infozoo.de

@od it is not about commercialisation - it is about your demands

2024-12-31 13:51:21

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@od
@Mario Vavti

I can't remember if there was ever a version of Hubzilla where it was possible to create a contact without assigning it a contact role (when in doubt, it is currently always ‘default’). Was there really such a thing?

2024-12-31 14:22:44

od@zotum.net

There are no demands in open source software. Information about personal experiences is published; people are free to ignore or investigate