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2025-02-14 17:13:08

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

"There are two primary elements to bringing Quote Posts to Mastodon: user-centric, and technical."

The @MastodonEngineering team shares their thinking process on implementing Quote Posts, a long-requested feature.

https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2025/02/bringing-quote-posts-to-mastodon/

#mastodon #fediverse #QuotePosts #QuoteBoosts

show all 17 comments

2025-02-14 17:25:06

Jan Walraven

janwlrvn@social.coop

@stefan

Good! And I think @MastodonEngineering is making the right choice with these features:
- You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.
- You will be notified when someone quotes you.
- You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

2025-02-14 17:26:27

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@janwlrvn @MastodonEngineering Absolutely!

Really appreciate the thoughtfulness and transparency!

2025-02-14 18:01:30

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@stefan @MastodonEngineering

"You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.
You will be notified when someone quotes you.
You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time."

Wow, I honestly didn't expect this kind of concern for consent from Mastodon.
The "meeting with community leaders" in the intro of the text didn't ignite my hope either.
This is really good news, thanks!

Now the same should be applied to harassing comments on posts - "You will be able to remove a reply to one of your posts at any time.".

2025-02-14 18:05:13

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@PaulaToThePeople Definitely good news!

And yes, I hope better reply/interaction controls are coming soon, I know some of that is planned right after quote posts are finished. Really can't wait to see that!

2025-02-14 18:13:19

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@stefan Really? So far all I heard was "this is intended behavior". Or deafening silence.

2025-02-14 18:19:24

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@PaulaToThePeople Well I don't know about the ability to remove replies, but as for reply controls, there's been a few things mentioned here and there, eg. most recently: https://oisaur.com/@renchap/113523258089885857

2025-02-14 18:32:30

Renaud Chaput

renchap@oisaur.com

@PaulaToThePeople This (reply controls) is an even harder problem than quote posts because it is not clear who can control who can reply. is it the person you directly reply to, or the top poster of the thread, or anyone in the reply chain? What about mentions? And you also need to think about backward compatibility with other software / old versions.
There is some work around it on the protocol level (which we mention in our technical documents) and we will get to it after quote posts
@stefan

2025-02-14 19:03:40

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@renchap @stefan Okay, I hadn't thought about that.

Thinking about it in the sauna just now, I think:

If A posts, B replies, C replies to that and D replies to that, then A, B and C should all be able to delete D's post. If B or C do it, then A (and B) should be notified. Because if e.g. C is just a troll, commenting with something discriminatory disguised as a question but deleting all answers, then A and B should be notified and able to delete C's post.

But I'm really more concerned about this scenario:

A posts, B is first to reply with doxing and a death threat, A blocks and reports B and thinks that's that. B's instance mod team doesn't care or is absent. A's post trends. Many instance mod teams will block B or B's instance, but millions of people will see the post.

My suggestion: If someone reports or blocks a user that replied to their public post, they should be warned, that only deleting their own post will keep the reply from being spread around - until a reply deletion feature is implemented.

2025-02-14 19:05:04

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200

I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200

The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #CherryPick #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

2025-02-14 19:14:34

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@jupiter_rowland Okay, but just because other projects don't care about consent when it comes to quote posts, doesn't mean Mastodon has to go down that same path. Even if consent can then only be enforced Mastodon to Mastodon.

2025-02-14 19:30:44

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Stefan Bohacek

And yes, I hope better reply/interaction controls are coming soon, I know some of that is planned right after quote posts are finished. Really can't wait to see that!

And that, too, will only work within Mastodon.

Also, that, too, won't be a "Mastodon first" feature. At least Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have reply and interaction controls included in their permissions systems which, in a way, work Fediverse-wide.

Within themselves and each other, they actually make impossible what isn't allowed. For example, if you aren't allowed to repeat (= boost) or share (= quote-post) a post or a comment, you don't even have the button. These permissions aren't understood anywhere outside these three yet, but I've got higher hopes that this permissions system will be cast into FEPs than that Mastodon's hacks will be.

In fact, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have reply control on three levels:

channel-wide (who is generally allowed to reply; Hubzilla has eight levels, (streams) and Forte have three)
for individual connections
per post (on Hubzilla, commenting on a post can be disallowed altogether; on (streams) and Forte, additionally, commenting can be limited to your full connections, and a time can be defined from which commenting will no longer be allowed)

Again, within these three, if commenting is not allowed, the UI elements for commenting will be missing. Outsiders may be able to comment, but all three block disallowed comments on a server level, i.e. they aren't deleted from the inbox, they are kept from entering the inbox in the first place. And so they don't appear in the thread for all those who support threaded conversations.

It'd really be nice if this permissions system became one or a set of FEPs for others to pick up.

CC: @PaulaToThePeople

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #ReplyControls

2025-02-14 19:33:33

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@jupiter_rowland "And that, too, will only work within Mastodon."

Given how much thought and effort is put into the quote post implementation, and that the Mastodon team insists on going through FEPs on every new feature that is suggested to them, I have faith that they will be taking all of this into account. But we'll see!

2025-02-14 19:44:52

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@PaulaToThePeople It isn't just a matter of consent. Besides, for example, I do have quote-post control here on Hubzilla.

I can give permission to quote-post my posts to

everyone in the Fediverse
everyone on Hubzilla and (streams)
everyone on this hub
approved and unapproved connections
only approved connections
only those of my connections whom I explicitly give permission by contact role
nobody but myself

Over on (streams), I can still give that permission to

everyone in the Fediverse
all my connections
only myself + specific connections whom I grant that permission either by permission role or by individual connection settings

It's much more a matter of technology.

Mastodon is about to completely re-invent the wheel with a non-standard, Mastodon-only setting. This setting will only work within Mastodon simply because it probably won't even be documented anywhere, especially not before it's officially rolled out.

There simply is no way that every last instance of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. will have that setting implemented before Mastodon rolls it out so that even the users on mastodon.social are perfectly safe from the first second on.

Besides, @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and still the only maintainer of the latter two, will never introduce proprietary Mastodon features to them. He'd rather risk (streams) and Forte becoming incompatible with Mastodon. The same goes for @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, Hubzilla's main maintainers.

If Mastodon wants to become a perfectly safe haven against unallowed quote-posting, it has only got one choice: It must introduce something like (streams)' and Forte's user agent filter and use it to block just everything that isn't Mastodon. Like, include a hard-coded allowlist that only includes Mastodon plus what little can't quote or quote-post anyway.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #CherryPick #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

2025-02-14 19:57:40

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@jupiter_rowland

No, it is a matter of consent. It's great that Hubzilla and (streams) have these controls for their users, but its fucked up that they obviously don't care about consent from other fedizen.
Mastodon decided against quote posts so far, so Hubzilla and (streams) should not allow quoting Mastodon posts.

And where are you reading that Mastodon will reinvent the wheel? To me it reads like they are working on Fediverse-wide interoperability for these features.

2025-02-14 20:17:41

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@PaulaToThePeople

Mastodon decided against quote posts so far, so Hubzilla and (streams) should not allow quoting Mastodon posts.

I mean, I could propose to Mike, Mario and Harald to automatically remove the Share button under any and all posts and comments from Mastodon, just to see their reactions.

But as a matter of fact, Pleroma and Akkoma can quote-post Mastodon toots just the same. The same goes for Misskey and its over 50 forks, including but not limited to JavaScript-based Iceshrimp which won't get any new features, Iceshrimp.NET which isn't officially released yet, Sharkey, CherryPick and Catodon. And Friendica can quote-post Mastodon toots, too.

Several dozen Fediverse server projects can quote-post Mastodon toots. They all would have to change. Or they all would have had to change the moment that it was decided that Mastodon lacks quote-posts to protect its users rather than to stay simple.

And where are you reading that Mastodon will reinvent the wheel? To me it reads like they are working on Fediverse-wide interoperability for these features.

That has been Mastodon's track record since its very inception. I won't believe that anything has changed about this until Mastodon actually implements technology introduced by another Fediverse server project.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

2025-02-14 20:47:35

PaulaToThePeople

PaulaToThePeople@climatejustice.social

@jupiter_rowland Okay if your argument is "consent is not important, because others don't care about consent either", then we are done talking here.
That's gangrape-mentality.

2025-02-15 10:03:39

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@Jupiter Rowland

The same goes for @Mario Vavti and...

I'd really prefer speaking for myself...