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2025-01-20 00:36:41

toolbear@union.place

A #FediSchism presupposes that the Fediverse is a monolith to be split in twain. This is poor way to visualize the Fediverse. At least for me it was. I think talk of a Fediverse schism is rooted in propaganda aimed at creating division.

A better mental model for myself when contemplating #Fediverse schism risk: earth worms, slime molds, or dandelions. The Fediverse more as ecosystem than platform.

TL;DR — be wary of discussions about divisions; especially when combined with outrage farming

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2025-01-20 09:52:15

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@toolbear#🪧 From an outside-of-Mastodon point of view (I'm posting this from Hubzilla which is very, very much not like Mastodon), I can see schisms through the Fediverse happen quite easily.

For example:

One side: Mastodon fundamentalists who want to enforce the Mastodon culture and the Mastodon "rules" (both as established by the first wave of Twitter refugees in the mid-2010s, based solely on Mastodon 3.x and completely ignoring the rest of the Fediverse) all over the whole Fediverse. And everything that doesn't comply must be defederated.
The other side: Places that can do the same as Mastodon, but that aren't Mastodon, and that have their very own culture, not to mention features which are deeply engrained in their culture, but forbidden in Mastodon's culture. Pleroma and its forks. Misskey and its forks, fork-forks, fork-fork-rewrites etc. Friendica and its family tree. And so forth.

Or, although this may become obsolete:

One side: Those on Mastodon who don't want to have quote-posts in the Fediverse.
The other side: Again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon while capable of doing Mastodon things, because it all does have quote-posts right now.

A variant that's more likely to happen soon:

One side: Mastodon, full stop. It has introduced quote-posts. It has also introduced a quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch. This switch, however, is proprietary, non-standard and completely incompatible with the rest of the Fediverse.
On top of this, as demanded in that one quote-post feature request, there's a new rule for all Mastodon instances: Any and all Fediverse instances which "circumvent" Mastodon's quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch to quote-post Mastodon toots must be regarded "rogue" and Fediblocked.
On the other side: Once again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon, but that can do what Mastodon can do. Once again, it can quote-post right now. It can also quote-post Mastodon toots right now. And it won't know that proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-only opt-in or opt-out. So it can quote-post any and all Mastodon toots with zero resistance.

The logical result: All Mastodon instances must immediately block all instances of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, CherryPick, Sharkey, Catodon, Neko, Meisskey, Tanukey, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. All instances of all of these have quote-posts. They can all quote-post Mastodon toots. And when Mastodon introduces the opt-in or opt-out switch, they won't know that switch. And what they don't know, they can't heed. So they'll still be able to quote-post any and all Mastodon toots, completely regardless (and oblivious) of opt-in or opt-out status.

This, however, is against the new rule that states that all instances that can quote-post toots that shall not be quote-posted must be blocked. Which applies to all of them. Thus, all of them, every last one of them, must be defederated.

If properly carried out, this would fully separate several dozen entire Fediverse server applications from Mastodon. The only reason why these server applications won't be fully separated is because it's a game of whack-a-mole. Mastodon can't defederate entire server applications by user agent (this is possible and actually implemented on both (streams) and Forte), so server applications have to be defederated instance by instance.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #MastodonCulture #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #FediSchism

2025-01-20 15:45:03

toolbear#🪧

toolbear@union.place

@jupiter_rowland
I think what I'm saying is that before I was visualizing the #Fediverse as like a human body – cut off a limb or even a digit and that's a big deal worth trying to avoid. Especially if the limb is the head.

But a worm can survive and even thrive a certain amount of division.

I don't know if you can kill a slime mold by "dividing" it. I imagine it would be difficult.

Do you understand me better now?

2025-01-20 15:49:41

toolbear#🪧

toolbear@union.place

@jupiter_rowland
Before I was visualizing the #Fediverse as like a human body – cut off a limb or even a digit and that's a big deal worth trying hard to avoid (esp. `limb == head`).

A worm can survive and even thrive after a limited amount of division.

Can you kill a slime mold by dividing it? I imagine it would be difficult.

Worm == decentralized
Slime mold == distributed

Fedi resembles a combination worm + slime mold more than a human body.
#FediSchism

Aside: #Bsky resembles a human body

2025-01-21 11:23:53

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@toolbear#🪧 It's a common misconception on Mastodon and part of the omnipresent Mastodon-centricity Mastodon-normativity that everything in the Fediverse that isn't Mastodon is an add-on to Mastodon that couldn't survive without Mastodon.

But take a particular look at those parts which many Mastodon users would be the most eager to get rid off. None of them depend on Mastodon. In fact, in a way, they directly compete with Mastodon.

Friendica is over five years older than Mastodon. It has its own community, it has its own culture (which clashes hard with Mastodon's), and it can easily survive without Mastodon. In fact, many Friendica users would be glad to see the obnoxious "Fedi must be Masto all over" crowd disappear.

Same for Hubzilla and (streams). Hubzilla is older than Mastodon, too. Both don't even really try to become more compatible with Mastodon than they are by adding proprietary, non-standard elements from Mastodon. They'd rather stay on the safe side and stick to the official ActivityPub spec. Cut them off Mastodon, and they can fulfill the spec plus FEPs without having to compromise because Mastodon doesn't care for the ActivityPub standard.

In addition, ActivityPub itself is optional on both and off by default on new Hubzilla channels. Users of both see this as a drawbridge they could raise if need be. And I actually know one public (streams) forum where ActivityPub was deliberately turned off to keep Mastodon out.

Misskey and the Forkeys have different cultures yet again. They aren't simply alternative Mastodon frontends. If you cut them off Mastodon, they may be become a bit quieter, but they'll no longer have to appease to Mastodon users who demand Mastodon's culture and rules be established Fediverse-wide. Especially on the Japanese lighthouse instance, misskey.io, there won't be much of a difference anyway. That's because most western Fediverse instances have blocked it due to the potential consequences of legal differences between Japan and the western world.

Those server applications that aren't competition to Mastodon in any way (Pixelfed, Loops, PeerTube, Owncast, Funkwhale, Bandwagon, Castopod, Mobilizon, BookWyrm etc. etc.) will stay connected with both sides as long as they don't disturb Mastodon fundamentalists.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonCulture #FediSchism