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2024-09-25 20:50:24

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

CEO of Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, suggests that there is "no causal connection" between social media and teen mental health.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/25/24254044/mark-zuckerberg-meta-social-media-teen-mental-health

#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #MentalHealth #meta #facebook #threads #zuckerberg

show all 66 comments

2024-09-25 20:52:30

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸

chris@mstdn.chrisalemany.ca

@stefan excuse my language.

But Fuck That Noise.

2024-09-25 20:53:10

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@chris Excused!

2024-09-25 20:53:13

fromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻

fromjason@mastodon.social

@stefan they've known for a decade that's a lie

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2014/06/facebook-can-manipulate-your-mood-it-can-affect-whether-you-vote-when-do-we-start

2024-09-25 21:01:18

Kelvin n0mql EN35ld

kelvin0mql@mastodon.hams.social

@stefan

Forgive me if I don't take advice about the causes of mental health problems from someone with clear malignant narcissism.

2024-09-25 21:02:31

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@kelvin0mql Seems fair!

2024-09-25 21:26:46

Greg Johnston

GPJohnston@mastodon.social

@stefan also, there is no causal connection between moral responsibility and Fluckerburger.

2024-09-25 21:38:41

casey is remote

realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social

@stefan Well yeah it ain't casual

2024-09-25 21:42:45

:NonBinary: ジギーくん

zigi_now9@autistics.life

@stefan In other news, water is dry. ?

2024-09-26 00:55:42

Toni Aittoniemi

gimulnautti@mastodon.green

@stefan Not holding social media liable for what happens to people’s brains is comparable to not holding the DJ liable for the vibe at the venue. They’re playing other people’s music so surely that’s what’s responsible?

We just take them for their word and let them run with it. How are we so stupid?

2024-09-26 01:04:15

jbz

jbz@indieweb.social

@stefan wtf, I didn't know he was part of The Foundation™.

2024-09-26 01:08:28

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@jbz He might not be directly involved very much, if at all, but having his company listed under "partners" on https://socialwebfoundation.org definitely does not inspire confidence.

2024-09-26 23:39:41

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

CEO of Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, thinks that "individual creators or publishers tend to overestimate the value of their specific content".

https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/25/24254042/mark-zuckerberg-creators-value-ai-meta

#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #meta #facebook #threads #zuckerberg #AI

2024-09-26 23:42:09

Diane

alienghic@octodon.social

@stefan

Pretty sure Mark Zuckerberg also overestimates his value to society as well.

2024-09-26 23:56:02

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, "cut 21,000 jobs, including in trust and safety and customer service, over multiple rounds of layoffs", leading state and local officials "puzzled by what to expect from Facebook" around voting misinformation.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/meta-misinformation-problem-local-election-officials-worried-rcna172842

#news #TechNews #SocialMedia #meta #facebook

2024-09-27 01:13:31

wendinoakland :KINGPENG_PNG:

wendinoakland@beige.party

@stefan isn’t the #SocialWebFoundation looking to snuggle up real close to the #fediverse?

2024-09-27 01:17:41

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@wendinoakland Social Web *is* the fediverse, you know?

https://socialwebfoundation.org/what-is-the-fediverse/

2024-09-27 01:18:55

wendinoakland :KINGPENG_PNG:

wendinoakland@beige.party

@stefan #SWF is also, absolutely, Meta.

2024-09-27 11:13:22

David

DBG3D@masto.es

@stefan @wendinoakland
Visited the link and found ghost dot org.

Why non profit organizations are still allowed to use the .org domain extension when clearly the are in for the money?.

First thing you find in their web page is get a free 14 days trial. Basically is a payed service, then they should be ghost dot com.

2024-09-28 19:32:55

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@wendinoakland @stefan hey, Wendy. Actually, we are a big part of the Fediverse. You know me, of course, but you also know a lot of the open source projects, non-profits, and companies listed as supporters on https://socialwebfoundation.org/. Not everyone on the Fediverse is there, but I think everyone on the Fediverse can benefit from what we do.

2024-09-28 19:37:24

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@chris @stefan which noise?

2024-09-28 19:40:03

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸

chris@mstdn.chrisalemany.ca

@evan the original reference to Meta appears to have been deleted.

2024-09-28 19:40:58

wendinoakland :KINGPENG_PNG:

wendinoakland@beige.party

@evan @stefan Yes, I do, and I’m honestly concerned. I fear that meta, with its extremely lenient moderation, tolerant of thinly veiled racism, sexism, otherism of the most profound kind, and tuned to magnifying algorithms, will potentially harm some of the people most precious to me in this noncommercial fediverse. Please try to understand my reservations…

2024-09-28 19:54:29

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@wendinoakland @evan "honestly concerned"

We shouldn't be.

When Threads was announced and people started to panic about Meta taking over, I wasn't too concerned. I thought, they're scared, they see the future, and they're not in it, so they must act.

I did start to get concerned after this new effort was announced and Meta was listed as a partner. It's one thing to have Meta start using technology that's free for everyone. It's a whole other story when they attempt to influence it.

2024-09-28 19:55:06

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@wendinoakland @evan

But really, we don't know yet what this new group will be able to do and achieve. ActivityPub is still overseen by W3C, as far as I know.

And when they can infiltrate that?

Well, the fediverse is vast. There'll always be servers and platforms free from the influence of corporate social media companies. We'll keep moving to stay ahead of it.

We'll be fine.

2024-09-28 19:56:05

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@chris @evan From https://socialwebfoundation.org? I still see it there.

2024-09-28 19:58:02

wendinoakland :KINGPENG_PNG:

wendinoakland@beige.party

@stefan @evan ? All of my non-ai fingers & toes crossed ?? We all need to stay alert, safe, together. ♥️

2024-09-28 20:18:42

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland so, I think this is really important. I think everyone on the Fediverse should have the choice between connecting to their friends, family, colleagues and neighbours on commercial social networks from the platform they prefer, or staying isolated from those commercial providers and the people who use them. That autonomy is fundamental; nobody can force you to connect with anyone you don't want to.

2024-09-28 20:21:12

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland I also disagree that Meta can be a part of this network without influencing it. I don't think that's how social systems work. But I hope that we can take good things from Meta and leave the bad things.

2024-09-28 20:40:48

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland

"disagree that Meta can be a part of this network without influencing it"

Right, to a certain degree, sure.

But, at least from my perspective, I can't help but wonder, how are the other companies and organizations comfortable with their logos and names appearing right next to Meta's, given their history.

2024-09-28 20:41:38

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland But that's all I have to say on this topic. I've said on a few occasions that my single-user server is the last social media website I'll sign up for, and I'll stand by that.

Meta trying to co-opt it and subvert it was to be expected. I still believe we as a community can resist that. It's just disappointing to see so many not willing to even try.

2024-09-28 20:43:11

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland Stefan, I wonder for you what signals you might see a year from now, in terms of processes and programs, that would make you feel more or less concerned about the SWF?

2024-09-28 20:46:57

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland SWF has its problems covered in other threads discussing it, and to be honest, I'm less concerned about those.

My problem is specifically with Meta being welcome to directly influence the fediverse.

2024-09-28 20:47:19

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland I fully expect to see ad support on a protocol level, at some point, and perhaps that's even fine, depending on the implementation. If done right, this can help some servers keep up with the costs.

My concern is that that will not be where Meta's influence will end, and that's something that will take more than a year to fully reveal itself.

2024-09-28 20:53:55

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland you and I agree, mostly. I'm part of a cooperative instance, and I want our collective to thrive.

I also think it's great that companies have to engage with the Fediverse now. We have a powerful model and a powerful movement and they can't ignore us any more.

2024-09-28 20:56:38

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland also, I really hope this is *not* your last word on the topic. You have a valuable perspective that I really appreciate, and skill with communicating it. In particular, I think your writings on how new implementers should engage with the Fediverse are important.

2024-09-28 20:59:56

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland this is such a good point. I think that ad-supported instances exist, and that is kind of between the users there and the service providers, as long as the users have the choice to leave and take their data and connections.

2024-09-28 21:12:35

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland Thank you, I appreciate you saying that. And that you're engaging with critics, as far as I can tell, in good faith.

Nothing is set in stone yet, and conversations like these are crucial, even if they're difficult, and can easily get emotional. I'm sure you understand that everyone speaking up does it out of love and care for something you've helped create.

2024-09-28 21:12:49

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland But for me, the bottom line is, welcoming Meta is a huge mistake given their impact on the world, and disrespectful to all those who want the fediverse to succeed.

When Threads were announced, I was on the fence about whether to federate with them. I understood the benefits. With memories of their deeds slowly fading, I was willing to "see and wait".

2024-09-28 21:12:58

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland I highly recommend reading this article, if you haven't yet. After putting everything in context, I just could not justify being anywhere near that company.

https://erinkissane.com/untangling-threads

And just to add, --

"great that companies have to engage with the Fediverse"

Absolutely, this probably feels like a huge validation of your work, and those of everyone involved.

I just want it done on our community's terms.

2024-09-28 21:18:26

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland One more "last thing" to add. It would be nearly impossible to make a list of companies everyone here would agree on to steer the fediverse the right way.

But Meta is in a whole other league, see this pair of polls:

https://mastodon.social/@mcc/110663712542031369
https://mastodon.social/@mcc/110663714020414745

(Note that this was conducted before Matt Mullenweg went off the rails, definitely would be interesting to re-run this.)

2024-09-28 21:26:27

Coldoug

beingreal@mastodon.world

@stefan

A billionaire CEO putting business before people. Never.

2024-09-28 21:26:38

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland I think the Fediverse is worth fighting for. I'm glad that so many other people do, too.

2024-09-28 21:30:35

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland yes, I have read this many times.

2024-09-28 21:46:13

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland Right. And that means that you didn't feel that this behavior should exclude a company or an organization from participating in SWF?

To me, doing so would be on the same level as excluding a country from the Olympics, while allowing that country's athletes to compete as "neutrals".

I understand wanting everyone to have their say, but this looks like condoning their actions.

2024-09-28 22:23:33

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan @wendinoakland I mean, did *you* read it?

I think she pretty clearly recapitulates my point, that coming to the Fediverse and starting a brand new social graph is something only a few people are going to do.

Changing the way social platforms work is of utmost urgency, for all the reasons Erin points out. I don't think keeping the Fediverse small and pure accomplishes that.

2024-09-28 22:30:54

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland Just to clarify, I see "should we federate with Threads" and "should Meta have a direct influence on the fediverse" as two separate questions.

Given the ongoing issues of harassment mainly towards Black people, women, and independent creators, I am actually willing to consider starting to federate with Threads, if that's where enough folks end up. (If they enable federation, that is.)

That's a personal choice that will only affect me, as I run my own server.

2024-09-28 22:31:21

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan @wendinoakland Now, having Meta influence the direction of the fediverse, that's something that will affect all of us. And I am, personally, not willing to take a chance with that.

But like I said, any impact of that level would likely take a while to materialize, so we just have to wait and see.

(And, well, continue to oppose it.)

2024-09-28 22:41:26

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan so, I think what you're saying is that you think some people and instances will federate, and that's kind of up to them, but influence of Meta on the Fediverse is a red line.

2024-09-28 22:55:45

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Stefan Bohacek I'm wondering what Meta could possibly do that'd inevitably affect even the most remote corners of the Fediverse.

@Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, main maintainers of Hubzilla, and @Mike Macgirvin ?️, creator of, former official maintainer of and still occasional code contributor to the streams repository and Forte, are all too stubborn to let any one ActivityPub-based Fediverse project greatly influence them. They'd rather adhere to the W3C than to Mastodon or Threads.

I guess at least Hubzilla would rather risk being blocked by Threads entirely than caving in to its rules, such as all hubs having to turn their pubstreams on and switching it to federated. There's a very good reasons why hub admins don't do that.

If everything else failed, and the ActivityPub-based Fediverse went under, Hubzilla and (streams) could always wall it off by turning ActivityPub off.

CC: @Evan Prodromou @wendinoakland for Kamala

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Threads

2024-09-28 23:04:58

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan so, let's flip this idea around. With hundreds of millions of users each, Threads and Flipboard represent the vast majority of Fediverse users. The rest of us are a rounding error in that calculation.

Maintaining a connection to that big network is not guaranteed. There's no reason a group of ActivityPub implementers couldn't go to allowlist mode and just federate with the handful of services that make up the majority of user accounts on the network.

2024-09-28 23:52:55

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Yes, this is precisely my stance.

And I really can't think of much that they could do at this point, as a company, for me to ever trust their intentions with the fediverse.

2024-09-29 00:00:57

Anil Dash

anildash@me.dm

@stefan @evan @wendinoakland fwiw I don’t think there’s a credible path of non-engagement as long as hundreds of millions of well-intentioned users are involved. We have to pursue harm reduction for them even as we push to hold meta accountable; if we follow the analogy of email or podcasts, there are absolutely vendors in both those spaces profiteering grom fascism. Yet we need those formats to be open.

2024-09-29 00:03:40

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that not allowing Meta to be part of SWF or being allowed to influence the ActivityPub spec, and other parts of the fediverse, might result in them either giving up on integrating AP in Threads, or not federating with certain servers in retaliation?

If so, that would be a fair point, but then that also suggests that they're free to do whatever they want, with our community not standing up.

Then they already won.

2024-09-29 00:04:39

Amber (KittyGPT6.9)

puppygirlhornypost2@transfem.social

@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @evan@cosocial.ca I read this more of "You can choose not to federate with them but you'll be isolated from the rest of the network".

2024-09-29 00:07:49

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@puppygirlhornypost2 @evan Right, and that's fair, I suppose. But my bigger issue is still having them as members of SWF.

Like I said in another reply, I am open to federating with their servers, but I don't want them to steer the whole network in the wrong direction.

2024-09-29 00:09:01

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan I am saying that I would prefer to use whatever influence I have to guide the future of the social web to be open and accessible to individual/independent instances.

2024-09-29 00:27:27

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Fair enough.

And sorry to put you on the spot like this, but let me ask you, is there anything Meta, or their leadership could do that would warrant their expulsion from SWF?

2024-09-29 00:29:26

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan so, when we say "influence on the network" here, I don't think you mean that there would be no impact whatsoever of having Threads implement ActivityPub, right?

That seems unlikely. Every node on the network has an impact on the network, at the technical and human level, however small.

I think what you're saying is that you don't want them to have any influence on the ActivityPub standard itself?

And I want to check: do you mean *no* influence, or just no *bad* influence?

2024-09-29 00:34:42

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Initially I meant bad influence, but since I don't trust them at all, and not necessarily having foresight of how each change can manifest itself in the future, I'd prefer no direct influence.

I'm sure there's a ton we can learn from Meta's experience, and from Twitter's, etc, and if the community deems certain features useful, sure, let's implement those.

But I'd rather those ideas come from people I can trust having good intentions.

2024-09-29 00:36:38

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan so far? No. They've been great, super helpful, the Policy team has held consultations with hundreds of people in the Fediverse. I and others have spent time answering questions and providing support to their technical team. They come to events like Fediforum.

2024-09-29 00:37:21

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan And yes, for the sake of simplicity, let's focus on their potential influence of the ActivityPub spec itself.

Again, surely they'll push for ads, and I'm sure many will be okay with that.

What next, data collection?

I don't necessarily have the knowledge of determining the damage they can cause if everyone goes along with what they'll suggest. So I'd rather just be safe and not chance it.

2024-09-29 00:58:58

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Right, let me rephrase.

None of Meta's actions listed in Erin's article were deal breakers preventing Meta from joining SWF. Perhaps it's because the technical expertise of the engineers who are directly involved is more important than decisions taken by the company's leadership, who are not. Maybe they even stood up against the leadership, unsuccessfully.

Fair.

2024-09-29 01:01:02

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan What if, to use an absurd example to make a point, what if Meta starts to allow CSAM on Threads? Would they be kicked off SWF?

I just wonder, going back to my example with the Olympics, why not accept contributions from trustworthy individuals without *seemingly* condoning actions of their employer?

2024-09-29 01:10:47

Evan Prodromou

evan@cosocial.ca

@stefan I don't think it makes sense to truck in hypotheticals.

I appreciate this conversation with you, and I hope you feel free to contact me again in the future.

2024-09-29 01:11:56

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@anildash @evan @wendinoakland Right, and I am definitely more open to the idea of maybe some day federating with Threads, or even Bluesky, and don't judge people who already do that now.

But that shouldn't be tied to Meta being a member of SWF or any other group or organization that can influence ActivityPub.

Maybe when I said influence *fediverse*, I was being a bit too vague, but as I had a chance to explain myself more clearly, this is what the issue is for me.

2024-09-29 01:27:56

Stefan Bohacek

stefan@stefanbohacek.online

@evan Fair enough! I appreciate you engaging with critical voices in the community, and I look forward to reconnecting again.