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Sat, 18 Dec 2021 03:39:21 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 22:25:54 +0100

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

I'm losing track of the narrative. Maybe someone can help me out here.

Even though the vaccinated can still catch and spread the virus, we have to isolate the unvaccinated from the vaccinated because...

the vaccinated can only catch the virus from the unvaccinated

0 Stimmen | 0%

the unvaccinated must be pressured by all means to give in and get vaccinated, ethics be damned

0 Stimmen | 0%

the unvaccinated should all just die

0 Stimmen | 0%

the world has lost its fucking mind

4 Stimmen | 100%

4 Stimmen insgesamt
Umfrage ist beendet

show all 30 comments

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 08:25:20 +0100

Amikaner

amikaner@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Hmmm...I think...

The official narrative seems to be, "Our intentions for the human race are good!". Observing those good intentions in action reveals that either they are paving the road we're on, or we are witnessing the classic divide and rule strategy, which, to me, seems more probable.

But, what really seems hard to miss is the positive synergy between state, science and business.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:33:25 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

do unvaccinated and vaccinated catch and spread the virus in the same extent? Do we konw that?

Basically unvaccinated can catch and spread the virus AND also get this serious illness to that extent that is puts more pressure on the health care system... actually i think this is the main reason why unvaccinated are a risk for society and get pressured

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:02:08 +0100

Max Kostikov

kostikov@zotum.net

For me, all this COVID-related psychosis and paranoia was complete insanity from the very beginning.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:10:11 +0100

Jason Cook

jason@hub.inktada.com

Forgetting the media and political agenda...
I know there are exceptions to everything (I seem to remember a 1 in 10000 number), but I don't see the 30 and younger putting a strain on the health care system if they want to live by statistics and the fact everyone is going to catch in anyway.

For 40 and older, the chances of complications compound and definitely put a strain on the heath care system. I don't know why anyone in 50s+ would want to take the risk of permanent damage and increasing likelihood of death with each decade older.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 14:51:27 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jason Cook
Actually i think every decease by Covid is one to much

53813 deceases by Covid by persons under 50 just in the US - that is even much to much

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:31:21 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

Whether it makes sense for individuals to get vaccinated is not the question. The question is whether it is justified to, let's be honest, punish those who opt out of vaccination for any reason. At best, your vaccination status is a risk factor with regard to infection and subsequent severity of disease. Should other negative risk factors be punished? Should you lose your job or be prohibited from going to the store because your vitamin D levels are too low or if your immune system is weak?

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:43:50 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

As much as I hate to encourage the tangent, the "if it saves one life" test is completely unrealistic in the real world. There is no such thing as a zero-risk world. There are only risk trade-offs. Thousands of lives would be saved by eliminating all motor vehicles! But different thousands would die because emergency medical services would take hours to provide.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:54:44 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

I realized later I should have included "BECAUSE SCIENCE!!!!" as an option

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 18:20:17 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Marshall Sutherland

Should other negative risk factors be punished?

it is not just a personal risk factors - its also about putting a strain on the health care system... just put your self in the position of some one how is working in a hospital...

Should you lose your job or be prohibited from going to the store because your vitamin D levels are too low or if your immune system is weak?

this is a bit of topic

Thousands of lives would be saved by eliminating all motor vehicles!

hmm... I would say - if there would be a vaccination which could simply stop car accidents we all should get that injection :-)

The virus is not a private matter - it forces a whole society to react... or suffer...

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 22:48:13 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

I'm having a hard time composing a reply because the whole concept of "protecting the vaccinated from the unvaccinated" is nonsensical. Let me start at the beginning. The whole point of the vaccine is to protect the vaccinated from the virus. If the vaccine can do that, the vaccinated don't have to worry about catching it from anyone. If the vaccine can't do that, they have to worry about catching it from everyone. Note, that "unvaccinated" appeared in neither case. Clearly we are in the "can't" scenario (which is not to say that the vaccine doesn't provide some protection).

There are many factors that increase or decrease your chance of becoming infected. Vaccine status is just one of them. Age is a huge one, but we can't change that. If we are going to protect the general population by isolating those with the highest risk of being infected, shouldn't we consider all risk factors? The fact that we don't would seem to imply that the motivation isn't really public health, but punishment of the unvaccinated.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 23:11:29 +0100

Jason Cook

jason@hub.inktada.com

If I were in the age 40 category, I'd certainly vaccinate as that is still a great deal of risk.

I am in the 50s category, so it was a no brainer - I was vaccinated immediately. If I were in the Age 30 category, based off the information that's out there currently, I would really have to think about it. Keep in mind that any deaths in the US, if you have covid at the time, even if you have severely compromised immunity and that was yet another factor, it is automatically categorized as a death from covid. Then you start looking at the percentages... Then you have to start doing research on the amount of people that had complications due to from getting vaccinated in those age categories, it starts looking like very small differentials.

This is also based off of knowing the vaccine did not follow normal protocol and was rushed to market, saving a ton of lives. Doctors usually don't make things so black and white, and that's where politics have kicked in. It just doesn't seem to follow normal guidelines.

Sat, 18 Dec 2021 23:45:06 +0100

Jason Cook

jason@hub.inktada.com

FYI, I appreciate all the feedback in this circle as it has all been constructive. Even with a crazy poll :) That said, this is my last post in this thread. I'd much rather talk/photo share about science, technology, engineering, mathematics, crafting, artwork, construction, programming, fabrication, and music.

I'll continue watching the thread and may occasionally make comments on other random threads.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:04:53 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

The fact that we don't would seem to imply that the motivation isn't really public health, but punishment of the unvaccinated.

Up to now I din´t care much about who is vaccinated or not... but somehow after 2 years we have to get back to "normal live"... so how we are getting there?

the Global daily statistics
https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/
shows in the first graph "New reported infections" and "Reported deaths" that the Vaccine status seams to makes a huge difference how serious people get effected by covid... and here i´m talking not about infection but death...

We have to get this herd immunity without losing so many lives... tell me a way to get there.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:23:33 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

The current vaccines are too leaky to get us to herd immunity. We either need a better vaccine or a highly contagious, but relatively benign strain that confers immunity once you have. Will omicron be that stain? It sounded promising in South Africa, but less so in the UK. Time will tell.

Sorry about the snarky poll, but I was pretty riled up about the things being done to the unvaccinated, the worse of which was shaming of school children who weren't vaccinated. Personally, I've had 3 jabs.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:25:24 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

Portugal with 88% of fully vaccinated and Spain with 80 % of fully vaccinated have much less trouble with this 4. wave of covid right now... So how we are getting there too?

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:26:56 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:27:13 +0100

Cyborg 2-A ✅

wago@libertious.com

I was talking to a fashion model today and she claimed that since she had covid she couldn't get vaccinated. But she said her symptoms were mild like the flu. I think people are using that as a cover lol. I'm pretty sure she is full of bologna. I asked her if her doctor told her she can't get vaccinated and she said what do you mean? I guess a doctor wasn't involved. Then she said every woman she knows who was vaccinated, their periods were changed. And her brother-in-law has been doing lots of "research" about it. Probably means reading forum posts.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:29:04 +0100

elmussol

elmussol@elsmussols.net

I like this conversation (and most of all the tenor). Mandatory vaccines make all kinds of alarms go off in my head. In the 50+ category too (with a partner with a respiratory disability) so no brainer is apt.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:32:39 +0100

elmussol

elmussol@elsmussols.net

@Waitman Gobble Here at least you have to wait at least six (may be nine) months before being vaccinated after having had COVID.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:43:31 +0100

Cyborg 2-A ✅

wago@libertious.com

I read on cdc site or something reputable that it depends on the treatment a person received for COVID. Maybe that's changed. I was looking for the information about getting my second vaccination.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:46:47 +0100

elmussol

elmussol@elsmussols.net

There are geographical variations on when and under what circumstances I'm sure.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:49:09 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

The most vaccinated state in the US is Vermont (85.8% fully vaccinated) and they have more cases now than ever. Maybe it is because they have been leading the pack since the beginning and therefore they have had more time for the effectiveness to wane. I have no idea what their booster status is, but I'm guessing they would have led the pack when it comes to boosters, too.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 01:01:58 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 01:04:05 +0100

Cyborg 2-A ✅

wago@libertious.com

I agree. It's hard to find an authoratative and decisive source when trying to make a decision. I don't know if the doctors have better information. In DR i can go to a lab and have any test performed, blood, whatever even an MRI and get the results. There is open source software to read CAT scans and MRI's, it's basicly jpeg2000 files as i recall. Have to check that info. They don't have a backend network like in the USA. The doctors tell a person to go get tests and bring them the results. So, for example, a person can figure out what each measurement is and determine that they are vitamin B deficient or whatever. They don't know why, of course.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 01:14:03 +0100

Cyborg 2-A ✅

wago@libertious.com

In regards to the poll, "it's complicated" should be a response :)
We were told going into this that a small percentage would have symptoms and even smaller percentage would die, and a much larger percentage would carry it. It's probably true. The problem with the small percentages is that it clogs up and overloads the hospitals.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 07:59:36 +0100

Beni Grind ~HB9HNT

navigium@grindcore.ch

The official narrative here in Switzerland is that we have to make sure that less unvaccinated catch the virus because they statistically require more capacity of the ICU at hospitals. And making sure we have enough ICU capacity is officially top priority.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:11:24 +0100

Amikaner

amikaner@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

This may be interseting.

Found 965,843 cases where Vaccine is COVID19
Search Results from the VAERS Database

Administered by: Unknown Purchased by: ?Symptoms: Product preparation issue SMQs:, Medication errors (broad) Life Threatening? No Birth Defect? No Died? No Permanent Disability? No Recovered? No Office Visit? No ER Visit? No ER or Doctor Visit? No Hospitalized? No Previous Vaccinations: Other Medications: Current Illness: Preexisting...

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:14:26 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:15:04 +0100

Amikaner

amikaner@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Here's an interesting interview.

Zuby: "This is a Moral Panic"
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VM_LRw0957w

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 09:13:29 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

according to this source https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/us/vermont US Vermont is at 76 % but also Vermont may not be that good for an example because so few people live there.

After all it is also a lot about math if you want to get this herd immunity where you still can catch the virus but don´t have a serious course

70% (Germany) or 67% (Switzerland ) or 62% (USA) of fully vaccinated seam to make a huge difference to 88% (Portugal ) or 80% (Spain) in this respect.

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 09:28:11 +0100

Sophie

sophie@hub.somaton.com

Rocky wrote;

Portugal with 88% of fully vaccinated and Spain with 80 % of fully vaccinated

One should add that these numbers refer to the whole population. This means 95% in the age group 12+ are vaccinated in Portugal, and something around 90% in Spain, don't know the exact numbers for Spain off the top of my head. There is also a bit of acquired immunity in both countries, as Covid had hit them hard.

Vaccination protects some. It also slows down the pandemic, as vaccinated who get infected are less likely to get serious conditions and less likely to transmit it. And once a person has been infected and vaccinated, they are very unlikely to get it again. That should be the medical aim.

As for the poll, the political narrative really does not interest me anymore. So, give me a break would be my answer. :wink:

Sun, 19 Dec 2021 16:13:38 +0100

Marshall Sutherland

dwatney@hub.farthinghalearms.com

@Amikaner I listened to an interview Zuby with Peak Prosperity recently and was impressed.

Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:31:50 +0100

Amikaner

amikaner@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Yes, I just recently discovered him myself.