I'm a new streams user and understand very little of this

Thu, 09 May 2024 03:32:57 +0200

streamsgarden@forum.statler.ws

Echo wrote the following post Wed, 08 May 2024 18:32:57 -0700
I'm a new streams user and understand very little of this
I recently read in a bio:

If you follow me, and I "follow" you back, I don't actually follow you and receive your posts. [...] I only "follow" you back because Hubzilla requires me to do that to allow you to follow me.

Is this the case with streams as well?
I'm uncertain what exactly occurs from another person's perspective when I add them as a connection, how that may vary based on the toggles I enable or disable at that time, or based on their home platform (ActivityPub vs not, masto/misskey/pleroma/pixelfed/et al).

My naive mental model is that we can each see each others public posts by direct navigation, connect/follow to receive those in our respective stream/feed, and if mutually connected also see those restricted to connections. Any rules of thumb or sensible defaults would be appreciated. I will do some checking but I have a hunch that an ounce of insight could save a pound of effort either creating accounts on open instances or spinning them up myself just to see things from the other side.

I don't want to toggle the wrong thing and send my posts to a server that isn't interested or have to explain that I'm not actually following someone despite what their app said.

@Echo

show all 11 comments

Thu, 09 May 2024 04:38:16 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

Hi Echo, welcome aboard.

There's a basic rule and it took me quite a long time to learn it: The Default Settings Are Pretty Good. :-) I love to tinker with settings, and the number of settings available is alarming. But what works best is:

Select one of the "Social" channel types ("Restricted" is the default).
Start posting and commenting and making connections. Then, if something isn't the way you like it, modify the global permissions, otherwise leave them alone.
If there is an issue with one of your connections, only then do you need to look at the big list of individual permissions for that connection. If not, ignore them.

This was a challenge for me because I want to control every possible setting. But you don't actually have to worry about whether an uninterested server is receiving your stuff.

I'm looking at that quote about following, and I don't think it's a correct description of what is going on.

Thu, 09 May 2024 10:25:12 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

That was me who wrote that.

The reason is because Hubzilla doesn't handle followers and followed separately from one another. Doing so is Twitter-style. I think not even Friendica does it. Friendica was made as a Facebook alternative, and Facebook definitely doesn't do that.

At least on Hubzilla, mutuals are the default, also because permissions only really work properly with mutual connections.

There are two ways of handling followers. The "soapbox" way is to let anyone follow you just like so. But that doesn't necessarily grant them all permissions of a full, confirmed connection. And confirmed connections are always mutual.

The standard way, on the other hand, is for channel owners to manually confirm each follow request. But in doing so, they automatically follow that follower back to make the connection mutual as expected by Hubzilla as the default. It doesn't matter if that follower is on Hubzilla or (streams) or Mastodon or wherever. Until their follow request is confirmed, they won't see jack.

So there's only

mutual connection
following someone or something someplace that's neither Hubzilla nor (streams), and that doesn't know permissions
no connection at all

What I meant with...

If you follow me, and I "follow" you back, I don't actually follow you and receive your posts.

...is a permissions thing.

Yes, I've got a mutual connection with that someone. Yes, technically speaking in "Twitter/Mastodon terms", I follow that someone.

But no, I don't receive any posts from that someone. Because I don't grant that someone the right to send me their posts. Because I don't want them to clutter my stream with off-topic stuff that I'm not interested in, especially not within the scope of this channel. Like, dozens of boosts per day.

So if following means receiving posts, I do not follow them.

[i](Sorry for the hashtag line, but I've got a hunch that this comment will be public and go out to all my connections all across the Fediverse, mostly Mastodon, instead of staying within the Tea Garden.)

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Thu, 09 May 2024 18:09:48 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

Thanks Jupiter, I see what you're getting at now.

So yes, the streams default is mutual connections (follower + following). There are two ways (that I know of) to override this.

For an single connection, you can turn off any of the "Individual Permissions". Taking Jupiter's example, if I want to let someone follow my posts but I don't want to see their posts, I could turn off "Accept delivery of posts and conversations from", and maybe a few others. (The Facebook equivalent would be unfollowing a friend without unfriending them.)

If I want to make this the default for all my new connections, I'd use the Roles app to create a custom list of permissions, and then in Channel Settings > Security and Privacy, I'd set that as "Default Permissions Role".

Thu, 09 May 2024 18:52:25 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

Jupiter Rowland wrote:

(Sorry for the hashtag line, but I've got a hunch that this comment will be public and go out to all my connections all across the Fediverse, mostly Mastodon, instead of staying within the Tea Garden.)

Interesting to see how streams handled a missing [/i] on that. :-)

But this is a Safe Space! ActivityPub is disabled for Streams Users Tea Garden -- we are a pure Nomad/Zot6 zone!

Thu, 09 May 2024 20:57:03 +0200

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@diversispiritus.net.br

-- we are a pure Nomad/Zot6 zone!-
We are already ready for the masto activitypub apocalypse that starts in.......

Thu, 09 May 2024 21:44:19 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Thu, 09 May 2024 22:42:45 +0200

Mike Macgirvin ?️

mikedev@fediversity.site

The streams default has nothing to do with followers and following. It has to do with permissions. Unfortunately the people who wrote the ActivityPub protocol are following a Twitter "stalker" model (e.g. I'm now stalking you) and we can't change that expectation.

A follow request in streams only says that "I have granted you a permission which I do not grant to the general public". It could be any of our 15 or so different permissions. You do not need to reciprocate at all.

Most often these permissions are

I am letting you see my posts
I will send these posts to you. You do not have to accept them. That is your choice.
I give you permission to comment on my posts and send me direct messages.
I will let you see some of my protected files and images which are not shown to the general public

Or to simplify further "I am willing to share stuff with you and I'm giving you consent to communicate with and share with me."

Without my consent, these things ain't gonna' happen.

This is nearly the exact opposite of the Twitter model, which just proclaims that you're stalking me - although in ActivityPub I am permitted to reject this and say "no - you're not." That's the only part they got right.

I often use the "girl in a bar" analogy when describing this. You don't walk up to a girl in a bar and tell her you plan to follow her home and watch everything she does. You give her your phone number or email. (e.g. "I am willing to share stuff with you and I'm giving you consent to communicate with and share with me.").

She gets the right of response and can reciprocate by calling you or emailing you back - once again signalling "I am willing to share stuff with you and I'm giving you consent to communicate with and share with me." from her point of view. And the game is on.

This is how relationships work in the real world. Everything is consent based. In the real world stalkers get restraining orders and go to jail. That is not the best or most suitable model for social interaction on the web. In streams we do not call this a 'Follow request'. It is a 'Connection request'.

We do have to co-exist with a larger contingent in the fediverse that swears by the stalker model and use a protocol built by people who only know that model of interaction and name their protocol interactions accordingly (e.g. "Follow" rather than something neutral like "Connect" or "Grant"). But we can co-exist without compromising our principles. Admittedly this does cause confusion.

In streams software, we encourage you to detach from the "Followers/Following" mindset and focus on permissions or what your boundaries are and how you allow this person to interact with you. This may be quite different between different people based on who it is. It is not a black and white decision like the followers/following model. There are a thousand shades of grey.

Just like real life.

Thu, 09 May 2024 22:09:02 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Bill Statler In other words, you can override standard channel settings both ways for connections on (streams)?

Hubzilla only lets me add permissions, not take them away.

Thu, 09 May 2024 22:54:14 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

@Jupiter Rowland I believe it's the same as Hubzilla (but I don't use Hubzilla so I can't check). I really need to turn this question into a FAQ so that I can explain it to my wife and understand it better myself.

The basic thing is, the Grant Access permissions are conceptually different from the Accept Delivery permissions (I think). There is some way to explain this clearly, but I'm not mentally there yet.

Fri, 10 May 2024 02:53:20 +0200

Thank you all for the prompt responses and helpful explanations. Appreciate it!

Fri, 10 May 2024 09:33:13 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Bill Statler What I meant is, for example:

On Hubzilla, I can deny the permission to send me posts in my channel role. Then I can grant that permission to certain connections per contact role.

However, if I grant that permission in my channel role, I cannot configure a contact role so that it denies that permission.

Permissions granted by the channel role are always inherited by contact roles and cannot be overridden. A contact role can't deny a permission which the channel role grants.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Fri, 10 May 2024 18:38:42 +0200

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

@Jupiter Rowland

On Hubzilla, I can deny the permission to send me posts in my channel role.

Ah, I think that is the difference -- (streams) doesn't have that setting in the channel role. (Or at least, I can't find it.) So it only gets set in the individual permissions for each contact. Therefore, there is no issue with overriding a channel role permission.