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2024-12-13 23:58:47
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
via
Moved
cwebber@social.coop
As said, I think "credible exit" is a worthwhile goal. But it isn't participatory decentralization, on its own. The ability to *move away* is good, but what if your options are to choose between McDonalds and Burger King? Is that *sufficient*?
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2024-12-14 00:00:16
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
In particular, Mark is especially fair to highlight that email and XMPP are great examples of decentralized systems that either ended up centralizing in the case of email or failing to stay alive after the exit of a major player in terms of XMPP.
Mark's RFC has a lot of useful analysis. It does!
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2024-12-14 00:02:07
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So I've given a lot of context for Mark's RFC: it's an RFC by a respected standards author who has a long history of participating in standards from major internet-based corporations. It worries a bit about centralization but overall downplays decentralization more than it plays it up IMO.
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2024-12-14 00:03:43
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
And this is important of course, because this is the RFC where the definition of "decentralization" being provided comes from!
Or wait, or is it? Oh right, the RFC cites another source for its definition!
It's time to examine Paul Baran's 1964 paper. The story is about to become more intense.
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2024-12-14 00:04:44
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Except, like a 1990s sitcom, we're gonna cut to a break!
We'll be back... after
=== TEA BREAK 2: MY NOSE IS COLD ===
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2024-12-14 00:12:32
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jonny (good kind)
jonny@neuromatch.social
@cwebber
I keep refreshing this thread like a mystery novel and the cliffhanger is making me ghasp
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2024-12-14 00:16:26
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Mina
mina@berlin.social
@cwebber
I love, how you're telling your story.
Especially, the little strides to the sides make it very entertaining to read, despite the length and the non-trivial content.
(I might have left enough stars in the process of reading to create you some annoyance - sorry).
It is truly fascinating (and worrying) how much power over real things arises from controlling the semantics of terms.
Needless to say, I align pretty much with your idea of "(de)centralisation".
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2024-12-14 00:18:46
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*sparkling anxiety* Evelyn
Gorfram@beige.party
@cwebber
[ANNOUNCER VOICE]
Do you suffer from Nose Is Cold? Millions of people endure this condition every day.
Fortunately, Tea Break Industries has just released its breakthrough remedy: Cup Of Tea.
Cup Of Tea is hot, fresh, & available in caffeinated or non-caffeinated; with optional milk & sugar. It’s guaranteed to hydrate, invigorate, & warm your nose.
Look for Cup Of Tea in finer kitchens & break rooms everywhere.
[We now return you to our regularly scheduled Christine.]
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2024-12-14 00:19:16
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Jan Penfrat
ilumium@eupolicy.social
@cwebber
This thread is so long it's like LOST or The 100 I want to so much know how it continues but its past midnight here in Europe and I gotta sleep I'll binge the rest tomorrow. Thanks Christine for writing this!
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2024-12-14 00:22:52
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Alright I'm back from my tea break. But I have a confession for you.
I made hot chocolate instead.
But we are going to get into the second part of the unnecessarily thorough "decentralization" terminology deep dive I'm doing here in just a moment
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2024-12-14 00:24:49
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Before we get into that it's also getting pretty late here and I have another confession to make to you, I was pretty hungry, so you know what I did? I stood in the kitchen and I ate hummus in the kitchen with a spoon over the sink
You have found Secret Goblin #2, judging me for my hummus shame ?
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2024-12-14 00:26:19
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Lien Rag
lienrag@mastodon.tedomum.net
@cwebber
You ate hummus without bread ????
You heathen !
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2024-12-14 00:26:39
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
When we last left off I was peeling back layers of the terminology onion and we have gotten to the inner layer (maybe it goes deeper, I guess terminology usually does but this is as far as we go)
It is time to examine "decentralization" in Baran 1964
Because I am being UNNECESSARILY thorough
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2024-12-14 00:29:11
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So here is Paul Baran's "literally the most influential paper to affect networking systems ever" 1964 paper:
"On Distributed Communications: I. Introduction to Distributed Communication Networks"
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM3420.html
It's good, it's amazing, it's INCREDIBLY visionary
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2024-12-14 00:31:06
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So okay yeah it's very military-oriented but... but! The context for this paper is that Paul Baran is arguing for what eventually *becomes* networking as we know it. Baran says: let's use *cheap* equipment with *way less centralization that we've ever seen* and it'll be *better actually!*
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2024-12-14 00:34:11
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
And just imagine the *gall* of it: telling the *military* let alone the world oh you know how you love hierarchy? Well guess what, you know what's WAY better, something that's closer to cooperative anarchy, where there's a lot of cooperation lots of error-prone little guys
AND HE WAS RIGHT
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2024-12-14 00:35:46
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Baran comes in with the math to back up his claims, a vision of how basically wifi and satellite and land lines and cable internet would all work together before we even *had* any internet stuff, shows how a packet would look, and says if you want to REALLY be tough, be... "distributed"
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2024-12-14 00:37:24
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Hm, did you notice I said "distributed" and not "decentralized"?
Actually wait... does this sound familiar, have you heard of this paper before?
Could it be? No... it couldn't be...
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2024-12-14 00:42:17
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
And yes of course it is literally the paper that gives us this incredible FIGURE 1, which you have CERTAINLY seen if you have ever heard ANYONE talk about ANY "decentralized" or "distributed" system ever
CENTRALIZED DECENTRALIZED DISTRIBUTED
You know this image. You could never forget this image
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Paul Baran's incredible FIG. 1 with a star topology, a hierarchical star topology, and a mesh topology for CENTRALIZED, DECENTRALIZED, DISTRIBUTED respectively
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2024-12-14 00:48:21
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
One of the reasons you know this image is that everyone worth their salt who works on decentralized networks thinks about this image and puts it in their talks
But also so does this bro who has literally no idea about how tech works but thinks he does
So one way or another you're gonna see it
(tech bro courtesy
https://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/job-interviews
)
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Tech Bro from Three Panel Soul explaining confidently we need to interview people with questions irrelevant to their job
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2024-12-14 00:50:41
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
That comic is from Three Panel Soul btw, and here's the link
https://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/job-interviews
All of Three Panel Soul is good, but the Tech Bro ones are my favorites
https://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/search/Tech%20Bro
I love Three Panel Soul so much
(Gonna weird out
@3psboyd
by fangirling over here)
*COUGH* where was I
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2024-12-14 00:54:49
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"Christine if you love this paper so much why don't you like the definition of 'decentralized' from it?!"
The definition is great actually if you know the context
Because the context is CRITICIZING THE DESIGN UNDER THE DEFINITION AS A FORM OF CENTRALIZATION
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2024-12-14 00:56:24
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"What Christine you can't mean that, why would 'decentralized' be 'centralized' that can't be true"
Because because BECAUSE my good friend, Baran was describing "decentralization", a term that ALREADY EXISTED in networking, as being a kind of centralized system
NO REALLY I AM SERIOUS
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2024-12-14 00:57:24
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
The term "decentralized" was *already* in active use! So Baran was providing "distributed" as the new term! Oh my god THAT'S WHY THE DEFINITION BARAN PROVIDED FOR DECENTRALIZATION WAS SO WEAK
You don't believe me? Let me show you. LET ME SHOW YOU
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2024-12-14 00:59:27
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Here is where Baran defines "decentralization!" We have to read the whole definition!
You're not allowed to stop until we finish EVERY (cotd) let's GOOOO
> The centralized network is obviously vulnerable as destruction of a single central node destroys communication between the end station.
(cotd)
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2024-12-14 01:00:28
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Baran "decentralization" cotd:
> In practice, a mixture of star and mesh components is used to form communication networks.
IN PRACTICE FOR CENTRALIZED SYSTEMS YOU GUYS
(cotd)
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2024-12-14 01:01:20
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Baran "decentralization" cotd:
> For example, type (b) in Fig. 1 shows the hierarchical structure of a set of stars connected in the form of a larger star with an additional link forming a loop.
OH SHIT HE'S STILL TALKING ABOUT CENTRALIZATION FIGURE B IS THE MIDDLE ONE
(cotd)
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2024-12-14 01:02:49
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Baran "decentralization" cotd:
> Such a network is sometimes called a "decentralized" network, because complete reliance upon a single point is not always required.
OKAY WE'RE DONE
But look at it all together! He's talking about how "decentralization" is a term of art but it's still CENTRALIZED
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2024-12-14 01:04:12
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Baran didn't make up the term "decentralized" it already was being used in practice to talk about top-down hierarchical systems! Baran calls this version centralized even if there's a "loop" (a small number of top-level providers)!
YOU GUYS THIS IS NOT HOW WE ARE USING "DECENTRALIZED"
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2024-12-14 01:06:53
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
WE are not describing the future of routing small packets in 1964, that is NOT the world we are existing in, where "decentralized" meant a top-down hierarchical structure
When WE talk about "decentralized", we mean roughly a spectrum, with "centralized" on one side and "decentralized" on the other
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2024-12-14 01:08:40
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now I don't think Bryan Newbold realized that when he pulled his definition from Mark Nottingham who pulled his definition from Paul Baran, that this was the case. I think this is a game of telephone.
(I don't know how Mark Nottingham didn't realize it but that's an aside)
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2024-12-14 01:10:37
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
What I DO know is that it means that the entire structure of analyzing decentralization in Mark's paper and Bryan's blogpost thus, in practice, surround a term that is weak because it was FUNDAMENTALLY describing a centralized system, so it could criticize it
The loss of context here is BRUTAL
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2024-12-14 01:12:26
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
To conflate the two *automatically* introduces decentralization-washing. I don't think this is intentional, but it explains a lot.
It explains how a "weak" definition of decentralization could come from one of the boldest visions of what that very *idea* could be
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2024-12-14 01:14:02
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now okay let's point out the irony here because I feel like if I don't I'm being mean. Bryan does say:
> To some degree, I don't really want to spend time in a terminology debate.
And I just did! At length!
But the whole debate this whole time is "is Bluesky decentralized" so we kinda HAVE to
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2024-12-14 01:17:18
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
But also what happened was:
- I lay out a strong definition of decentralization; Bluesky doesn't match
- Bryan suggests an alternate definition, pulls
from
- An RFC which despite the title is extremely lukewarm AT BEST about decentralization which pulls from
- A definition describing centralization
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2024-12-14 01:18:22
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
And I don't think this was malicious on Bryan's part in the least because I know Bryan well enough to know he's not like that!
I am pretty annoyed at Mark though for quoting this out of context in such a way that it can completely confuse a narrative like this. I'll assume that was a mistake but
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2024-12-14 01:21:22
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
The reality is that Bluesky didn't match my definition of decentralization, and I hope it's pretty clear now that the alternate definition supplied was literally one about centralization
And so that cannot possibly be a lower bar that we say "okay maybe Bluesky can pass this one" I am sorry
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2024-12-14 01:23:28
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Let's PLEASE not move the goalposts on "decentralization". Let's certainly not move them back to something that was literally "here's what centralization looks like in practice".
That's what I'm asking for here. That's why I went so goddamned HARD on terminology here.
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2024-12-14 01:25:55
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Let's check the time.
It's 7:30pm where I am. I woke up at 4:30am and resumed work on my blogpost at 5am.
I have been, for the most part, between the blogpost, my job, and this thread, sitting at my computer fighting for decentralization for about 14 hours. It's been like that a lot lately.
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2024-12-14 01:27:45
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Robert W. Gehl
rwg@aoir.social
@cwebber
we're right here with you!
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2024-12-14 01:28:13
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
I have a reputation at work of being good at pushing others to take off time and they HAVE to take off time OR ELSE and I try to be that way in general. But I am really truly bad at doing so for myself and I know I have crossed my limits for today.
So let's wrap up for *tonight* in a sec
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2024-12-14 01:29:35
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
We're about halfway through this blogpost. There's a lot going on in my life. I am trying so hard to keep the organization I work for alive and moving forward. I am tired. I need rest. And I still need to drive two hours across the state tonight.
We're going to resume tomorrow. But first...
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2024-12-14 01:31:16
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
There's a reason I'm going really hard on this. I really care a lot about the shape of the internet. And tomorrow we're going to get into some more analysis and a talk about *values*, and one thing I like is that Bryan talked at length about Bluesky's values. And I think that part was really good.
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2024-12-14 01:33:11
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
For tonight, I need to unwind, I need to put a label on a mailbox, I need to eat dinner, I need to drive across the state, I need to sleep.
Maybe I appear ridiculous. I get it. I go pretty hardcore on this stuff. If you know me you know I tend to go all in.
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2024-12-14 01:34:18
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ɹ uɐp :antifascism:
dannotdaniel@hellions.cloud
@cwebber
I for one appreciate your threads and look forward to the rest tomorrow
I don't have any goblins but I can humbly offer you this flaming party parrot
keep it up!
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2024-12-14 01:35:18
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
I am signing off for the night. Tomorrow we will analyze whether or not my assertion that "ATProto has explosive behavior as it approaches decentralization" problems.
I'm not going to read notifications until I finish this. Maybe someone will prove me wrong before I get it done.
I'll be oblivious.
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2024-12-14 01:36:20
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✿ floby 💉😷💨
floby@mastodon.social
@cwebber
looking forwards to the next part tomorrow, and the third Easter egg
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2024-12-14 01:36:23
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
We will also analyze values, which maybe I care about more than anything. And there will be more secret goblins, hidden among the posts.
For tonight, it's rest time. It's time for a
=== NO MORE LOOKING AT MY COMPUTER BREAK ===
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2024-12-14 03:49:24
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jonny (good kind)
jonny@neuromatch.social
@cwebber
loved this, thanks to u for being u and thanks for your thoughts here <3
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2024-12-14 03:58:24
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Xavier Góngora
xg@social.toplap.org
@cwebber
I couldn't help but finish this thread start to bottom. I'm behind schedule on my own work, but this procrastination drift was worth the ride.
To build a common understanding of terminology is pretty hard, specially when people involved have (personal) stakes on the sources and consequences of the discussion. I think it makes sense that this somewhat boils down to a statement of values, as that's were the crossroads of discourse lies.
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2024-12-14 04:58:33
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John Panzer
jpanzer@mastodon.social
@cwebber
1. Thanks for the ?
2. This is reminding me about this historical research into what “airborne” transmission of disease meant (Telephone)
3. Values > words
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2024-12-14 18:28:00
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tom jennings
tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org
@cwebber
It's extremely important stuff, thank you for bringing clarity.
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2024-12-14 20:34:16
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Hello! I am back at my computer. Today we are going to talk about how ATProto does in terms of scaling. Yes, we know it scales up, and has done an impressive job of doing so!
But what about scaling towards decentralization? Does it scale down? And does it scale wide? Let's look.
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2024-12-14 20:36:36
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Before we get deep into that, when we left last night I was extremely tired and had been working at my computer for over 14 hours. I then said I was going to drive two hours across the state that evening.
Thankfully thanks to the support of people who love me, I did not do that foolish thing!
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2024-12-14 20:42:16
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So anyway, I am better rested, and also I woke up to the surprise that our fundraiser is doing a lot better, like by a lot, than it was yesterday, which is nice because I was extremely stressed out
https://spritely.institute/donate/
So I am feeling much better and alive and today I remembered to eat lunch
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2024-12-14 20:43:42
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
But you probably aren't here to hear about my lunch choices or how much sleep I got or whether or not I forgot to bring my ADHD medication with me (I did so now I am drinking a bunch of caffeine instead), you are probably here to hear the rest of the analysis about decentralization and Bluesky etc
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2024-12-14 20:45:35
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So let us get to it, let's talk about whether or not Bluesky can scale *down* in a meaningful way.
In my last essay I made assertions that this was important for decentralization and said ATProto wasn't great for this, and this was one thing people challenged me on
So let's take a look!
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2024-12-14 20:50:40
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
When I say "scale down", what I generally mean is "small instances can generally participate on the network". (We'll talk about "scale wide" later.) But another useful possibility which has come up is "can you make a smaller, more isolated use-case and use the same protocol for it"
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2024-12-14 20:53:12
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
This latter version of scale down does come up in Bryan's article:
> A specific form of scale-down which is an important design goal is that folks building new applications (new Lexicons) can "start small", with server needs proportional to the size of their sub-network.
(cotd)
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2024-12-14 20:56:06
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Strictly speaking, I agree, ATProto can scale down in this use case! For example, if you wanted to make a small specialized forum for collaborative storytelling, you could use ATProto for it, and that's true, you could do it
But is it the right choice?
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2024-12-14 20:57:14
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
In some ways we are talking about two different things here: extension of functionality (which you might want the same scale for) and having a smaller and more isolated community
But regardless
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2024-12-14 21:00:07
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
ATproto positions itself *specifically* as designed for not wanting to miss messages, and I talked previously about how ATProto's design requires a god's-eye view.
It's a bit strange of a choice when you say "let's run a smaller community"
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2024-12-14 21:01:26
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Given that message passing systems handle small scale systems *beautifully*, and *still* allow for interactions with larger scale systems, it's a bit confusing to me *why* you'd choose ATProto for such use cases. What is the specific benefit you'd gain? Especially because it's actually lossier here
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2024-12-14 21:03:30
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
At any rate, there's a bit of conflation here. "It scales down" by saying "you can have an isolated community/use case that's oblivious to the rest of the system" is categorically distinct from "it scales down" in terms of "a small node can meaningfully participate with the larger system"
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2024-12-14 21:04:54
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
At any rate, the problem with "scaling down" is much clearer when it comes to the problem of "scaling wide".
Or let me put it a different way: ATProto *explodes in complexity* when you try to scale it towards meaningful decentralization
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2024-12-14 21:06:58
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Yes that's right we're getting to the spicy part of this conversation. We did the warm-up, now it's time to talk about the real thing, whether or not decentralization in the way I believe people *think* that term means is reasonably possible with ATProto as it's currently designed
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2024-12-14 21:09:48
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
But before we do that, I need to stretch and run to the bathroom
So for those of you following along, if you found this, Secret Goblin #3, let me know: "?"
Oops wait actually we gotta talk about that one for a sec there's a reason I left it in scare quotes
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2024-12-14 21:13:47
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Why on earth is the textual descriptor for Unicode U+1F47A "JAPANESE GOBLIN", does anyone know?
It's a Tengu, right?
Despite being the only actually named "goblin" emoji, I feel awkward about this one because is it correct to call it a "JAPANESE GOBLIN" instead of just "TENGU"?!?!
I don't know!
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2024-12-14 21:16:40
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Brad Ganley
brad@m.toad.host
@cwebber
It does feel weirdly targeted. Feels like calling sushi "Japanese fish"
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2024-12-14 21:17:04
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
If you have knowledge or OPINIONS about "?", its name choice in unicode, or, for that matter, a white person just dropping it in the middle of a group chat WITHOUT putting it in quotes (I did tho), feel free to derail the comment thread
Otherwise it's time for a
=== STRETCH BREAK ===
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2024-12-14 21:37:15
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
I'm back. It's time to talk about it: does Bluesky/ATProto suffer a "quadratic explosion" as we move from centralization towards *meaningful* decentralization?
I claimed it did, but I was challenged on this. What did I mean? Am I right or wrong?
It's time to find out!
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2024-12-14 21:39:34
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
In the previous blogpost I said the following:
> If this sounds infeasible to do in our metaphorical domestic environment, that's because it is. A world of full self-hosting is not possible with Bluesky.
(cotd)
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2024-12-14 21:41:15
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Decentralized ATProto is quadratic quote, cotd:
> In fact, it is worse than the storage requirements, because the message delivery requirements become quadratic at the scale of full decentralization: to send a message to one user is to send a message to all. Rather than writing one letter, a copy of that letter must be made and delivered to every person on earth.
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2024-12-14 21:47:12
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
This was probably the thing I got the hardest pushback on from a team member of Bluesky, that it is not quadratic as we scale towards decentralization.
Truth be told, I don't have a degree in CS. Most of what I know I learned from studying independently and community resources. Was I wrong?
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Debate between myself and why.bsky.team about whether or not ATProto is quadratic as we decentralize it. We both agree that agency is the most important thing anyway, more on that later.
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2024-12-14 21:48:55
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Just as a quick aside, regarding that comment about "agency", maximizing the agency of everyone (and more importantly, minimizing subjection!) sits at the heart of my ethical framework
https://fossandcrafts.org/episodes/11-an-ethics-of-agency.html
So I don't disagree on that part, but that's an aside!
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2024-12-14 21:50:45
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now, I said I won't read replies until I am done summarizing things, and that's true, so maybe someone has gone out of their way and proven that I am wrong, that the claims in my article are factually incorrect and so on and so forth. I wouldn't know yet.
But... I don't think I'm wrong.
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2024-12-14 21:53:05
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
As said I'm very self-conscious about these things because I *don't* have formal CS training. But I do a lot of research and so I've tried to become knowledgeable about these things and this *seemed* like the correct analysis to me
Because of that, I turned to people who actually knew more than me
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2024-12-14 21:56:35
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
For one thing I derailed the entire Spritely morning standup by walking everyone through the scenario. I gave the story example, which I'll detail later.
But
@dthompson
didn't find the story helpful, too much narrative detail. "I need to work through this example independently." So he did.
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2024-12-14 21:58:31
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
@dthompson
came back and laid it out in more formal terms and said I was right.
But I was still nervous, so I called up one of my old MIT AI Lab type friends and rambled about it to them on a call. What did they think?
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2024-12-14 22:00:22
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"I think it's pretty clear immediately that it's quadratic. This is basic engineering considerations, the first thing you do when you start designing a system," they said.
Well that's a relief, why isn't it clear to everyone else, I asked?
So they suggested I lay it out to you as I did to them.
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2024-12-14 22:03:29
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Let's start with the following:
- ATProto has positioned itself as "no compromises on centralized use cases". Well, in that case, let's say it can't do *worse* than eg ActivityPub. This includes with replies. You can't do *worse* than ActivityPub on replies and mentioning someone, etc.
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2024-12-14 22:06:31
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
- We will interpret the most centralized system as one where there's only one provider for storage and distribution of all messages: the least amount of user participation
- The flip side of the spectrum of maximum decentralization is the *most* amount of participation: every user self-hosts.
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2024-12-14 22:07:47
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
- Just as blogging is decentralized but Google (and Google Reader) are not, it is not enough to have just PDS'es in Bluesky be self-hosted. When we say self-hosted, we really mean self-hosted: users are participating in the distribution of their content.
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2024-12-14 22:08:43
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
- We will consider this a gradient. We can analyze the system from the greatest extreme of centralization which can "scale towards" the greatest degree of decentralization.
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2024-12-14 22:10:03
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
- Finally, we will analyze both in terms of the load of a single participant on the network but also in terms of the amount of network traffic as a whole.
Okay. That is the structure we will use for our analysis. Let's compare "message passing" vs ATProto-style "global public shared heap".
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2024-12-14 22:17:40
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
So okay. Let's get the CS notation out of the way:
"Message passing" at full decentralization:
- O(1) from a single node's perspective
- O(n) from a whole-network zoom-out perspective (inherent: add a user, it's one more user)
Okay, that's reasonable and what you'd expect
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2024-12-14 22:20:28
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"Public global no-missed-messages (or not worse than AP) shared-heap" ATProto style at full decentralization:
- O(n) from a single user's perspective (!)
- O(n^2) from a whole-network perspective (!!!!!!)
Oof I'd better back this up because that ain't good!
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2024-12-14 22:27:48
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
In other words, as our systems get more decentralized, message passing handles things fine. Individual nodes can participate in the network no matter how big it gets. The zoom-out for the network as a whole doesn't get more complicated as we add more users OR move more users towards self hosting.
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2024-12-14 22:29:50
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Things are NOT good, if I'm correct above, as we make things more decentralized in the atproto-public-shared-heap model. The more self-hosting and indeed the more "full nodes" join, the more it gets expensive for each of the nodes and the network EXPLODES!
Truly self-hosted atproto is NOT POSSIBLE!
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2024-12-14 22:31:38
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
And there is no solution to this without adding directed message passing. Another way to say this is: to fix a system like ATProto to allow for self-hosting, you have to ultimately fundamentally change it to be a lot more like a system like ActivityPub!
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2024-12-14 22:34:16
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now I left more of the precise analytical explanation in my blogpost. But social media isn't great for that, so go check out my blogpost if you want to go through all that (eg if you're more like
@dthompson
and less like me, I'm a narrative person)
https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/
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2024-12-14 22:36:53
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Here's our story:
- We have 26 users: [Alice, Bob, Carol, ... Zack].
- Each user sends one message per day, which is intended to have one recipient. (This may sound unrealistic, but it's fine for modeling.)
- Each user sends a message in a ring: Alice => Bob, Bob => Carol, ... Zack => Alice
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2024-12-14 22:38:50
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now just before you say "wait but ATProto isn't for DMs", yes, but one way this could happen is that eg Bob follows Alice, Carol follows Bob, etc.
What I'm saying is, messages can have an "intended audience". That's what we're using here.
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2024-12-14 22:40:54
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Before we get into this, remember, the main difference between "message passing" and the "shared heap" is the former has directed and delivered messages, the latter does not. See prev blogpost for explainer.
So, what happens in a day for both systems? Because that's what we really want to find out.
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2024-12-14 22:42:09
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Under message passing, Alice sends her message to Bob. Only Bob need *receive* the message. So on and so forth.
- For an individual self-hosted node, messages passed per day: 1.
- Per the decentralized network, total messages passed zooming out: 26.
That's about what we'd expect.
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2024-12-14 22:43:33
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Under the public-gods-eye-view-shared-heap model, each user must know of all messages to know what may be relevant. Each user must *receive* all messages.
- Individual self-hosted server, 26 messages must be received per day.
- Zoom out on whole decentralized network: 26*26: 676!
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2024-12-14 22:46:12
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Sounds survivable with 26 users though, right?
Let's try just adding 5 more users.
Message passing:
- Per node per day: no change.
- Per the network: 5 more messages.
Public gods-eye-view-shared-heap-model:
- Per node per day: 5 more per day
- Per network: ((31 * 31) - (26 * 26)): 285!
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2024-12-14 22:50:09
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
Now, could we handle a million self hosted users? Is it possible? No problem in message passing. EXPLOSIVE with atproto.
What if we had a million users and added just 5 more? How many more messages must the network bear?
5 new messages in message passing.
*10,000,025* new messages sent in atproto!
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2024-12-14 22:51:54
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"Christine that's ridiculous, we're not expecting a million self-hosted users"
Well I think it would be nice!
But regardless, ActivityPub has 27,000 servers on it, all meaningfully participating in the network.
ATProto, in its current design, would be crushed to DEATH
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2024-12-14 22:53:38
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Brad Ganley
brad@m.toad.host
@cwebber
I hate when they say it isn't realistic as if there aren't people like me hosting 3 separate iterations of AP clients
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2024-12-14 22:55:23
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Christine Lemmer-Webber
cwebber@social.coop
"But Christine", you may say, "I heard gossip might fix this!"
No. It cannot.
In fact, I was being more generous than a gossip network, and assumed you only *received* a message once.
With gossip you might *receive* more than once.
But you need to receive a message to know it.
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2024-12-14 22:57:21
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Darius Kazemi
darius@friend.camp
@cwebber
I am as you know on your side in all this but there are people I disagree with who argue that having an incomplete view of all messages globally on ActivityPub is not "meaningfully participating" and I have trouble articulating my position with these people. Feels like a dead end where persuasion is highly unlikely
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2024-12-15 03:56:28
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Semitones
semitones@tiny.tilde.website
@darius
@cwebber
it seems like if your friends want to see every reply, then they may never agree that anything less than that is meaningful.
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2024-12-15 04:05:55
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Darius Kazemi
darius@friend.camp
@semitones
right. Seems intractable
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2024-12-15 04:23:04
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dynamic_hubzilla
dynamic@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
@
Semitones
@
Darius Kazemi
@
Christine Lemmer-Webber
If the issue were simply wanting to be able to see every *reply*, one viable approach for decentralized social media would be to give the OP ownership of replies, and then people (who are given permission by the OP to reply) decide whether or not to reply based on how they feel about the OP's moderation policies. I do not know how technically challenging that is or isn't in ActivityPub in particular, but there are certainly solutions that don't require Bluesky's centralized approach.
On the other hand, if people insist that they ought to be able to see every *message* on the network, then, yeah, that is indeed (as Darius says) intractable.
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2024-12-15 04:36:13
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Darius Kazemi
darius@friend.camp
@dynamic
@cwebber
@semitones
right. I meant all messages period, not all replies to a post you're looking at
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2024-12-15 04:56:17
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Semitones
semitones@tiny.tilde.website
@darius
@dynamic
@cwebber
maybe this is just Mastodon brain, but the things I've noticed "missing" are predominantly 1. Posts with hashtags 2. Replies on posts 3. Someone's post history (before I've followed them). Not a showstopper for me, but definitely not what people expect from a Twitter-clone. Sounds like the Bluesky "zero-compromise" worked as a drop-in replacement for Twitter in a way in which decentralized social media maybe can't?
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2024-12-15 16:29:00
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dynamic_hubzilla
dynamic@hub.netzgemeinde.eu
@
Semitones
@
Darius Kazemi
@
Christine Lemmer-Webber
"Not a showstopper for me, but definitely not what people expect from a Twitter-clone."
That makes sense to me. I don't think this bothered me in the same way because I never liked Twitter, but I get it.
There are certainly some bizarre behaviors on Mastodon that come with horizons, both due to differences in federation/defederation and due to timing of following.
I think the former issue can never be comprehensively resolved on a decentralized network as long as different parts of the network enact different sets of values. I think it can be mitigated in *subsets* of the network through technologically standardized lists of how different instances/servers and individuals should be moderated.
The second issue (timing of following) I *think* is an artifact of push-based federation, and could be resolved if content were shared on the basis of pulls instead. This certainly seems to be an issue with Mastodon, but I don't know to what degree this is intrinsic to ActivityPub, and I'd be curious to hear if Christine or Darius have more to say about that.
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2024-12-15 13:00:37
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Shoq
shoq@mastodon.social
Alternatively, there could be 3 or more available (and selectable) reply threads: 1) The OP’s organic replies, 2) The OP’s personally moderated replies, and 3) curated reply threads by 3rd parties. The latter might often be the most valuable.
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2024-12-14 23:00:49
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Blort™ 🐀Ⓥ🥋☣️
Blort@social.tchncs.de
@cwebber
To me the *ideal* is for *everyone* who uses social media to either self host or to be hosted by someone they know and trust personally. Even a tiny fraction of this would be far, far more than a million users!
Will we get there? Who knows? Few would have predicted that we would even get to where we are now, and numbers are only growing...
#Fediverse
#SelfHosting
#SocialMedia
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2024-12-16 15:40:43
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Travis F W
travisfw@fosstodon.org
@cwebber
if this math is right, bluesky cannot decentralize in a way that delivers the expected meaning of the word to the humans participating.
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2024-12-14 23:08:33
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flaeky pancako
fleeky@prsm.space
@cwebber
one thing I am surprised no one has mentioned.. the very philosophy of a gods eye view is inherently a centralizing one ?
1
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2024-12-15 08:50:00
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Jürgen Hubert
juergen_hubert@thefolklore.cafe
@cwebber
@dthompson
I was reading and reading your very interesting thread, and I was about to ask: "Can you put this into a blog post for future reference?". ?
Thanks!
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2024-12-14 22:43:16
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flaeky pancako
fleeky@prsm.space
@cwebber
luckily no one will be self hosting /snark
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2024-12-17 14:32:54
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Thanasis Kinias
tkinias@historians.social
@cwebber
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your laying out this issue in simple terms...
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2024-12-14 21:56:28
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Ελλεν Εμιλία Ά.ζ.
fogti@chaos.social
@cwebber
ok, so `n` nodes connect to `n-1` nodes each, O(n(n-1)) = O(n²), so quadratic is correct.
I think the thing about "gossip trees" is related to the tree structure which can be used to implement non-local multicasting.
stuff like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbone
is also interesting.
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2024-12-14 21:39:27
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:jan::abreath:🌬️:dandelion:
Crazypedia@pagan.plus
@cwebber
oh! This might explain it's adoption as part of introducing emoji to unicode and compatability with Japanese emoji usage, but more info is needed as to what it was doing as an emoji in the first place.
> Unicode Version 6.0
> Released in October 2010, Unicode 6.0 was the first version of the Unicode Standard to support emoji.
> Some characters in prior versions of Unicode were retroactively updated to provide an emoji presentation. This release was the first to introduce new characters for the sole purpose of compatability with emojis being used in Japan.
https://emojipedia.org/unicode-6.0
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2024-12-14 23:47:56
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Fluchtkapsel
fluchtkapsel@nerdculture.de
https://nerdculture.de/system/media_attachments/files/113/653/609/586/054/692/original/55a478382bc84460.mp4
@cwebber
Tengu #1 found.
a cartoon character with a long red nose and a blue background
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2024-12-14 21:25:44
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Jens Finkhäuser
jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
@cwebber
I don't know about an opinion, but
@camelliakyoto
does post a lot about Japanese traditions and myths, and of course, tea. I suspect they might have insights?
(They always have beautiful pictures of Japan)
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2024-12-14 21:25:30
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. stdh .
stdh@hostux.social
@cwebber
C-x 8 C-m 1f47a
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2024-12-14 21:56:24
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lampsofgold
lampsofgold@veoh.social
@cwebber
?
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2024-12-14 22:54:20
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rafoo
rafoo@mastodon.zaclys.com
@cwebber
I've found the Tengu.
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2024-12-14 23:29:10
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javitel
javitel@mastodon.online
@cwebber
?
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2024-12-14 23:41:48
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viq
viq@social.hackerspace.pl
@cwebber
? needs a stretch too
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2024-12-15 03:44:32
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Semitones
semitones@tiny.tilde.website
@cwebber
I found goblin 1. ?and goblin 2. ? yesterday and they are mischievously grinning and quietly celebrating now that they are a trio together with ?.
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2024-12-17 17:21:20
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Rocketman
slothrop@chaos.social
@cwebber
?
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2024-12-19 22:23:24
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✿ floby 💉😷💨
floby@mastodon.social
@cwebber
took my time but found the 3rd Easter egg
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2024-12-14 21:11:59
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Mark Kraft
KraftTea@mastodon.social
@cwebber
ATProto:
Pick one.
f4aac15bc03dfe86.png
1d30441b587d18ce.png
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2024-12-14 22:48:10
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gkrnours
gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place
@cwebber
wait, caffeine is an alternative to ADHD medication?
1
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2024-12-14 09:53:54
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Rocketman
slothrop@chaos.social
@cwebber
This has been a splendid read to start my morning. Thank you!
Get some rest. Be well.
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2024-12-14 01:58:23
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Travis F W
travisfw@fosstodon.org
@cwebber
I am really grateful for the attention to this word that we all care so much about. I value your constructive discourse tremendously, and your energy and passion about the topic is refreshing. This stuff is important for the future of humanity.
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2024-12-14 01:33:59
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bignose
bignose@fosstodon.org
Thank you
@cwebber
for caring so much about the shape of the internet, that you not only engage in this discussion but also pick your own writing apart to help us follow it and comprehend the substance.
This has been a gripping few hours of reading, rest well and I look forward to the continuation.
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2024-12-14 01:31:49
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Franky ?
Slufferbeiste@mastodon-belgium.be
@cwebber
Don't forget to move
#hiking
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2024-12-14 01:33:04
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damon
damon@social.wedistribute.org
@cwebber
Agreed as long as people stop conflating federated and decentralised
1
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2024-12-14 01:35:16
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Darius Kazemi
darius@friend.camp
@cwebber
thank you for contextualizing the Baran 1964 citations btw.
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2024-12-14 09:48:44
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Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
dos@social.librem.one
@cwebber
It's like when people make proprietary source code releases, call that "open source" and then argue that nobody has a monopoly on the meaning of the term while clearly benefiting from its preexisting connotations.
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2024-12-14 08:33:43
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Jens Finkhäuser
jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
@cwebber
I appreciate this view, and can mostly, let's say, agree with it. But I also think it has flaws.
Mostly, I think the loss of context goes the other way around, but I also admit that it's a matter of perspective: if you use a term, it's best to use it as it was defined, not redefine it. So the use of "decentralized" kind of *should* be as described in Baran.
But independently, using the term as a counter to centralization is intuitive, so I know that's a fight against windmills.
1/n
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2024-12-14 01:09:21
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Travis F W
travisfw@fosstodon.org
@cwebber
so is all-the-way decentralized (not just a little bit) … distributed?
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2024-12-14 02:13:54
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Andrew 🏳️🌈 💻 🧦
amca@aus.social
@cwebber
Is there a mathematical algorithm, probably from graph theory, that measures how de/centralised a network is?
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2024-12-14 01:07:10
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Jens Finkhäuser
jens@social.finkhaeuser.de
@cwebber
depends on the "we", I guess.
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2024-12-14 01:00:23
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Joshua Barretto
jsbarretto@social.coop
@cwebber
It is the middle of the night and I am worried that reading this post in my head is going to wake my dog
1
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2024-12-14 01:00:49
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Marsh Ray
marshray@infosec.exchange
@cwebber
What’s the next logical progression?
Zero trust?
Ephemeral mesh?
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2024-12-14 01:52:48
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Stefan
stefan@gardenstate.social
@cwebber
you're killing it!
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2024-12-15 20:21:07
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Raccoon🏳️🌈
Raccoon@techhub.social
@cwebber
@3psboyd
Something I think is really important for people to understand about those programming problems before they post comics like this is that, even though they don't accurately mimic the day-to-day of professional programming work, they do teach a lot of skills in terms of solving the unique problems that people encounter, and tell potential employers that the person who solves them knows enough to solve a programming problem.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of applicants for programming jobs, including a large chunk of people with degrees in computer science, do not know how to do any programming in any language. Solving weird programming problems at least shows a degree of general competency.
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2024-12-14 01:21:10
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Efi (nap pet) 🦊💤
efi@chitter.xyz
@cwebber
I have now seen this image
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2024-12-14 02:07:50
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Just Bob ♒🇺🇲🪖🐧
bob@beamship.mpaq.org
@cwebber
So, the Fediverse is B? I've always thought it more as C.
And we all know the corporate controled networks is A
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2024-12-14 02:51:22
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In #Flancia we'll meet
flancian@social.coop
@cwebber
this is literally in [[decentralized]] in the Agora (the social knowledge graph I'm developing) but I didn't know where it was from, thanks for finding the source!
It should of course also be linked at [[distributed]] for completeness :)
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2024-12-15 20:21:51
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Raccoon🏳️🌈
Raccoon@techhub.social
@cwebber
I love the figure.
The figure is love, the figure is life.
All hail FIG. 1.
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2024-12-14 21:34:20
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Nicholas
nicholasr@mastos.online
@cwebber
Isn't this part of the reason why the Internet became SO successful?
There is a lot of technology that is less centralization
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2024-12-14 13:51:21
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Gert V 🇵🇸
gert@social.coop
@cwebber
Also on how it could have ended up in implementation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.25
VC may be established using X.121 addresses. The X.121 address consists of a three-digit data country code (DCC) plus a network digit, together forming the four-digit data network identification code (DNIC), followed by the national terminal number (NTN) of at most ten digits.
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2024-12-14 01:38:11
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Andromeda Yelton
thatandromeda@ohai.social
@cwebber
but seriously that’s such a good paper and it’s always a good day to reread it
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2024-12-14 00:31:46
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lampsofgold
lampsofgold@veoh.social
@cwebber
hello secret goblin #2 (codename jim)
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2024-12-14 00:45:52
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viq
viq@social.hackerspace.pl
@cwebber
Second Secret Goblin doesn't judge, only nudges you to share hummus
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2024-12-14 04:33:59
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
baralheia@dragonchat.org
@cwebber
the Hummus Goblin knows what you did
Found Secret Goblin #2!
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2024-12-14 04:50:54
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infinite love ⴳ
trwnh@mastodon.social
@cwebber
was it at least good hummus
1
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2024-12-14 09:33:58
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Rocketman
slothrop@chaos.social
@cwebber
Hummus, sustenance for humans and goblins alike
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2024-12-14 10:36:38
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Fluchtkapsel
fluchtkapsel@nerdculture.de
https://nerdculture.de/system/media_attachments/files/113/650/494/106/868/938/original/433eea6784112f94.mp4
@cwebber
Goblin #2 found.
An animated drawing of a goblin girl standing next to a slice of bread, the slice of bread toppling over her
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2024-12-14 22:38:22
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rafoo
rafoo@mastodon.zaclys.com
@cwebber
I've found the second Goblin!
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2024-12-14 23:16:27
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javitel
javitel@mastodon.online
@cwebber
?
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