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2024-11-05 05:56:36

The Nexus of Privacy via Fediverse Report

thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

A faux "Eternal September" turns into flatness

https://privacy.thenexus.today/flatness/

The next installment of Mastodon, two years later

Contents:

It's not "just like email"
Usability and gatekeeping weren't the only challenges newcomers faced
The first complicated high-stakes decision is even before you sign up
Why not help people choose an instance that's a good fit?
But no

#mastodon #fediverse

show all 11 comments

2024-11-05 21:25:36

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@The Nexus of Privacy A remark on "A Tale of Two Prototypes": The Fediverse did not start with Mastodon.

You wrote that, quote,

Mastodon and its forks have also prototyped
[...]
A consent-based culture that (while imperfect and intermittent) points to a very different path than surveillance capitalism
A real-life testbed for all the complexities of decentralized moderation and federated diplomacy
A protocol-based platform for (somewhat) interoperaable social media operations

End quote.

No, they didn't. Mastodon and Glitch invented next to nothing. It has all been there before 2016, before Mastodon, just like the Fediverse itself.

Allow me to quote-post myself:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Tue, 05 Nov 2024 20:38:26 +0100

Three golden rules for the Fediverse.

One: Whatever you think Eugen Rochko has invented in the Fediverse was most certainly actually invented by either Evan Prodromou or Mike Macgirvin long before Mastodon.

Two: If you think the Fediverse should introduce a feature because Mastodon doesn't have it, the Fediverse most certainly does have it because any one of Mike Macgirvin's creations (Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and/or Forte) has it. It's likely that other projects have it, too. And if it's on Friendica or Hubzilla, they've had it before Mastodon was made.

Three: At no point in history has the Fediverse ever been only Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fedi #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fedi #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

2024-11-05 21:34:42

The Nexus of Privacy

thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

Yes Mastodon and its forks most certainly did prototype those things. They weren't the first to prototype any of them -- and neither were the sources you cite, these all predate the fediverse.

In the fediverse context, the links in "Before Mastodon: GNU Social and other early fediverses" go into detail, including

"Mike MacGivirn's Friendica (originally known as Mistpark) supported DFRN as well as OStatus and Diaspora, was the first fediverse software to bridge multiple protocols.

Flash forward to 2024, and Elena Rossini's The Future of Social is Here: a Show and Tell (part 3: Friendica) discusses, Friendica's functionality remains much richer than better-known fediverse software like Mastodon. In 2012 Macgivirn started Friendica fork (variant) Hubzilla (originally Redmatrix), and introduced the Zot protocol. Zot's support for decentralized (aka nomadic) identities was an important user-focused feature that Mastodon and most other fediverse software still doesn't support today."

https://privacy.thenexus.today/mastodon-a-partial-history/#pre-history

@jupiter_rowland

2024-11-07 05:57:19

:mima_rule: Mima-sama

mima@makai.chaotic.ninja

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange The fact that people are using "it's just like email" to "prove" how "intuitive" Mastodon is shows a fundamental problem with the approach of both the developers of fediverse software and their hardcore advocates. You are building an SNS ffs, not a mailing list.

2024-11-07 06:00:37

lumpen 🍉 III

scrum@wanderingwires.net

@mima @thenexusofprivacy yeah it's nothing like email actually lol, it's much more like rss feeds but in json and better

2024-11-07 06:14:25

:mima_rule: Mima-sama

mima@makai.chaotic.ninja

@scrum@wanderingwires.net I think there are some technical inspirations from email here and there like the (web)finger addresses (@user@host), the shared inboxes and outboxes (kinda like in POP3 where there is only a single shared directory for all incoming mail), and the email-like semantics of to and cc. But users do see it more in the way they do blogs enabled by RSS, yeah, with ActivityPub as a way to provide feedback/comments to those blogs under a single (ideally at least) identity they control.

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

2024-11-07 06:21:20

:mima_rule: Mima-sama

mima@makai.chaotic.ninja

@scrum@wanderingwires.net Perhaps it's not exactly RSS they're thinking of, but when I think of "email", first thing that comes to mind is private communications. Yes you can make it "public" with public mailing lists, just as you can do "PMs" in ActivityPub by setting the visibility of your post to mentioned users only (though Misskey allows you to do recipients without any mentions, however they seem to be the exception in terms of UX in this front).. But ActivityPub and RSS are both designed with public visibility first in mind.

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

2024-11-07 06:44:13

lumpen 🍉 III

scrum@wanderingwires.net

@mima

AP is a weird mutant protocol lol, StatusNet/ GnuSocial is basically RSS based, but the limits of RSS became very apparently, i have a lot of issues with how Mastodon and other AP based platforms talk about think about developement, in many ways i think they are unnecessarily limited by the protocol, like in terms of the platform as such there's lots of things you can do in terms of what you do with the information once you get it, there's also no reason you can't just also integrate RSS and email into the platform -- like the US that accesses the AP account can also manage RSS aggregates or provide a webmail frontend, Diaspora support or webmention are also not that hard to implement, i think the pubnix model of having a server that hosts a number of services is more the way to go... or Hubilla and how they used ActivityPub just as a 'transport layer" and use their Zot protocol for things like identity management and migration

@thenexusofprivacy

2024-11-07 08:18:01

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@lumpen 🍉 III

or Hubilla and how they used ActivityPub just as a 'transport layer" and use their Zot protocol for things like identity management and migration

Hubzilla doesn't even need ActivityPub. Hubzilla was the first to implement it, two months before Mastodon, but it doesn't depend on it. Zot has always taken care of everything.

ActivityPub is an add-on and only there for Hubzilla to be able to connect to ActivityPub-using servers. It's optional for both hubs and channels. For channels, it's turned off by default like all other non-nomadic bidirectional protocols because it interferes with nomadic identity.

Even (streams), which has ActivityPub built into the core and on by default on new channels, doesn't depend on it because Nomad takes care of everything. Mike Macgirvin's first creation that depends on ActivityPub is Forte from about two and a half months ago because it has tossed all other protocols out.

And still, both Hubzilla and (streams) take the ActivityPub standard plus FEPs more seriously than Mastodon.

CC: @The Nexus of Privacy

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #ActivityPub #Fediverse #Mastodon #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte

2024-11-07 10:37:35

lumpen 🍉 III

scrum@wanderingwires.net

@jupiter_rowland

hey thank you very much, I am very interested in Zot, when i say how Mastodon or Misskey have a limited horizon of possibility i have those projects in mind ( also friendica and their diaspora support is cool, diasp has a very welcoming culture, idk why fedi instances don't just add a bridge, lazy af, skimming the code it looked like friendica just has one Diaspora.php file that handles all of that, and honestly i think php is better suited for a decentralized social network than ruby or node, easy to learn and modify etc.

i was considering running Streams, I have a Hubzilla account but honestly not the biggest fan of their frontend and i don't think i ever figured out how to use most of it lol, i've been messing around with implementing my own minimal zot/AP server in PHP but would certainly be easier to just make a new frontent for either HZ or Streams and maybe build some addons

BTW Has someone updated the Chess Addon? last i checked they broke it, only chess is a huge thing and if you can chess over zot all types of gaming possibilities open up

2024-11-07 18:25:57

The Nexus of Privacy

thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

@mima yeah totally agree.

2024-11-08 12:32:09

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@lumpen 🍉 III

idk why fedi instances don't just add a bridge, lazy af

This has nothing to do with laziness.

For the vast majority of people in the Fediverse, including developers, the Fediverse == ActivityPub and only ActivityPub. For many, the Fediverse == Mastodon and maybe stuff that was bolted onto Mastodon after the fact. If there's another protocol they've even only heard of, it's Bluesky. So if they develop any new Fediverse server application, it's always a) ActivityPub only and b) being built against Mastodon with no regards to anything else in the Fediverse.

Almost nobody knows that anything in the Fediverse supports more than one protocol. That's largely unheard of and largely unimaginable. A poll has revealed that three out of four Fediverse users have never even heard the name "Hubzilla". Most of those who have heard of Friendica without having used it think it's another Mastodon-like ActivityPub-only Twitter clone, but with no character limit, because what else could it possibly be in a Mastodon-dominated Fediverse?

This also means that Fediverse users and Fediverse developers alike don't know which Fediverse projects are able to connect to diaspora*. Hell, the vast majority of Fediverse users and developers have never even heard of diaspora* itself!

And then there's the ActivityPub-centricism. In the opinion of most, ActivityPub is the only protocol that's even tolerated in the Fediverse. Sure, why not connect diaspora* to the Fediverse? But in order for this, diaspora* must add ActivityPub support. Full stop.

For in practice, the most wide-spread definition of the Fediverse is "everything that can connect to Mastodon". But before Mastodon itself adds another protocol and actively reaches out to something that isn't Mastodon, it adds full HTML rendering support. And before Mastodon adds full HTML rendering support, hell freezes over.

Besides, why would the Mastodon devs add features to something which they have the balls to declare "the only feature-complete Fediverse project" straight into the face of a Hubzilla veteran? (This very thing has actually happened to me, and I've got witnesses. Luckily for this guy, I couldn't be bothered to list up Hubzilla features and ask him whether Mastodon has them.)

skimming the code it looked like friendica just has one Diaspora.php file that handles all of that

Both Friendica and Hubzilla don't have support for additional protocols built into their cores in various places. It's always an add-on, it's always optional, and it's pretty much always off by default for new accounts/channels. So why split across a whole bunch of files what can just as well be put into one? Besides, I don't know if Friendica and/or Hubzilla supports add-ons that are spread across multiple PHP files.

and honestly i think php is better suited for a decentralized social network than ruby or node, easy to learn and modify etc.

And more lightweight. Hubzilla actually produces less server load per user than Mastodon. And Hubzilla has vastly more features than Mastodon.

I have a Hubzilla account but honestly not the biggest fan of their frontend

Well, a feature monster like Hubzilla can barely be harnessed with a Twitter-like, easy-peasy UI. Could be one reason, albeit neither the only one nor the most important one, why nobody has ever even tried to develop a Hubzilla phone app that puts Hubzilla behind an all-new mobile UI. Such an app would be more complex than K-9 Mail.

That being said, @Scott M. Stolz is working on brand-new general-purpose themes, although the first one will be based on Redbasic, and @????? is working on brand-new special-purpose themes.

and i don't think i ever figured out how to use most of it lol

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ is currently re-writing the entire help from scratch.

i've been messing around with implementing my own minimal zot/AP server in PHP

Especially now that Zot6 is so firmly tied to Hubzilla, I don't think it's a good idea to build another project on on Zot from scratch. You'd have to make everything compatible with Hubzilla and keep it compatible with Hubzilla. Zot/Nomad is not a W3C standard. There's no committee behind it. The old Zot is maintained by the Hubzilla maintainers and tied to Hubzilla, Nomad is still maintained by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ and tied to (streams).

Besides, a server application that has both Zot6 and ActivityPub firmly and permanently built into the core is an even stupider idea. On Hubzilla, ActivityPub is deactivated on new channels by default for a very good reason. The reason is because ActivityPub, like all other non-nomadic protocols, still interferes with Zot's nomadic identity.

Even if, for some reason, you decided to build your server app in a more traditional way, non-nomadic with no channels and the identity firmly tied to the account, I wouldn't entirely rule out interference. Besides, if you decide to go non-nomadic, where's the point in using Zot and constantly having to keep pace with Hubzilla then? Permissions? Ask Mike how he did them on Forte, using only ActivityPub.

but would certainly be easier to just make a new frontent for either HZ or Streams and maybe build some addons

The original very idea behind (streams) was for developers to fork it (ideally soft-fork it), build something on top of it and give it a name and a brand.

Remember that it isn't named "Streams", it's named nothing, it doesn't have a name, it doesn't have a brand identity. That's fully intentional, partly to spite brand worshippers, partly so that those who'd fork (streams) wouldn't have to rename it because it doesn't have a name to change to begin with.

It's another story that nobody has ever forked (streams) into a new project, and instead, people kept developing all-new, ActivityPub-only server apps against Mastodon or forking Mastodon's underwhelming and outdated code or Misskey's inherently messed-up code.

BTW Has someone updated the Chess Addon? last i checked they broke it, only chess is a huge thing and if you can chess over zot all types of gaming possibilities open up

The Chess app was moved to addons-unmaintained in 2020 and thus removed from installations for a very good reason: In 2020, Hubzilla was upgraded to Zot6 which had been developed on Osada and Zap. But that would have required the Chess app to undergo quite a lot of changes. And the devs couldn't see how the Chess-specific activities could possibly be mapped to Zot6.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #diaspora* #Zot #Nomad #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams)