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2023-07-17 13:18:58

toasteranimation via Fediverse

toasteranimation@lemmy.world

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2023-07-17 13:32:05

Nepenthe

Nepenthe@kbin.social

who the kbin software attracts

Currently, it's an uneven split between fledditors and tech nerds, which I would chalk up to mastodon/fedi in general brimming with mostly nerds, and kbin specifically being a platform in its infancy that would naturally attract more curious devs than shitposters.

I think it'll balance out more over time, as people who have made their home here make it the home they're looking for. I'm hoping kbin will always keep the air of kind hyper-inquisitiveness that it currently carries.

2023-07-17 16:44:28

PeleSpirit

PeleSpirit@lemmy.world

I would still like to communicate more easily with the other clubs though, copying, pasting and searching is kind of a pain. I think it would make it more fun.

2023-07-17 17:03:59

deeroh

deeroh@lemdro.id

Genuine question, because the Lemmy app I’m using right now (Thunder) doesn’t show instances next to user names, and I haven’t generally been paying attention to which instances host which communities. What about kbin makes it attractive to inquisitive people?

2023-07-17 17:27:21

Nougat

Nougat@kbin.social

It's where I happened to land, but I've been quite happy. ernest is the dev, and he's tops. There's a KBin Enhancement Suite going already which includes a toggle for @username@instance display, as well as plenty of other things. hariette is developing Artemis as a kbin-compatiable mobile app for iOS and Android (which also promises future lemmy compatibility). The kbin interface is pretty clean and intuitive, and I'm looking forward to how it matures.

2023-07-17 17:57:47

Adam

breakfastmtn@geddit.social

FediDB tracks server software across the Fediverse. They track activity and overall ‘market share,’ which I think is what you’re looking for.

They’re also tracking the Threadiverse specifically.

2023-07-17 18:09:37

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Nepenthe My impression is rather that actual nerds are few and far between on Mastodon. It used to be somewhat nerdy in its infancy, but it no longer is. Most people use it through mobile apps on iPhones and think that alternatives to any GAFAM products don't even exist. They don't want to read nerd stuff.

Once a nerd who ends up on Mastodon learns that there are Fediverse projects with way more features, and that Mastodon is actually quite lack-lustre and underequipped, as long as they don't have hundreds or thousands of faithful followers yet, they'll go elsewhere. Akkoma. CalcKey, as it's still being called but not for much longer. Mitra. Friendica.

And the hard-core nerds take the next step and move to someplace with working nomadic identity, namely Hubzilla or (streams). Seriously, Hubzilla has no casual, non-techy normies, and (streams) has even fewer.

2023-07-17 19:41:25

toasteranimation

toasteranimation@lemmy.world

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2023-07-17 20:28:21

Adam

breakfastmtn@geddit.social

No problem! Cheers :)

2023-07-17 20:38:59

Nepenthe

Nepenthe@kbin.social

For me, I had my own reasons that were similar to Nougat's. Sensible, non-eye-burning interface. A frankly surprising admiration for what I'd seen of what would become my dev's personality and approach, where I hadn't felt anything but veiled contempt for an admin in decades. I didn't know about the other perks (individually muting instances, neat community tagging system, 70% compatibility with mastodon) until later, but those make me even more satisfied with my choice and I'm content to wait out the small stuff.

For inquisitive people, I'm not overly certain beyond what I've said. It could have been a fluke. It could be that, since lemmy was the first choice anyone ever mentioned, shitposters are just looking for the easiest way to have a good time. So lemmy got all the shitposters. And if you weren't interested in what lemmy had to offer, there was a very good chance you weren't interested in where the fediverse currently was in general, in order to bother reading through all the other options. A lot of people decided they didn't like how janky and different it felt and they just went elsewhere.

I could be overly-projecting, but people who kept looking long enough to stumble across kbin instead of choosing lemmy or giving up I think would tend to be the more anxious, detail-oriented types that are liable to do their homework before making anything approaching a decision. Which would...inherently make them more likely to be hungrier for that kind of thing in general? Which naturally meshes pretty well with the aforementioned nerdiness of those who were already here when we arrived.

I really don't want to make assumptions, though, or end up implying things like "Lol, lemmy got all the lazy chodes and we got the smart people." Especially between such closely-linked communities that started out as quite literally the same group. Expecting such a clear delineation would be a bit laughable, and we'll blend with each other like we always have. I have no interest in tribalism, I'm just enjoying the time period this platform is troll-less.

2023-07-17 20:46:40

toasteranimation

toasteranimation@lemmy.world

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2023-07-17 20:49:29

toasteranimation

toasteranimation@lemmy.world

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2023-07-17 20:51:40

Nepenthe

Nepenthe@kbin.social

It makes sense, but it's more than a little depressing and I would have thought the features wouldn't really be much of an issue for someone who chose that platform. Someone on Twitter might be aware that Reddit exists and how it works, but they're still not very likely to uproot themselves from a platform they know and use just for that (current events notwithstanding).

Can I ask what kind of service Hubzilla is, that puts it above the other options? Especially for nerds? I've heard the name maybe three times now, but I know nothing else. Is it just the fact that they're not tied down?

2023-07-17 22:08:22

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Hubzilla is a "social content management system", so-to-speak. It's actually an absolute feature monster.

It's kind of a derivative of Friendica by Friendica's own developer who also created the protocols that each one of them is based on (DFRN for Friendica, Zot for Hubzilla). It inherited several features from Friendica: Post length is virtually unlimited. Text formatting is supported through BBcode which includes embedding of images and other media within the text, and which has been enhanced further on Hubzilla. Both have supported public groups/forums from the beginning, as well as a public calendar.

Friendica had organisation of contacts in groups before Diaspora*'s aspects (which some think were the first of their kind), let alone Google+'s circles (which everyone else thinks were the first of their kind), but Hubzilla expanded them with privacy features. Generally, Hubzilla has one of the most advanced access/permission control systems in the Fediverse.

Both have built-in file hosting which is also used for embedded images and other media. Instead of your pictures being stored "somewhere", you always know where they are because you've put them there.

Friendica mostly became famous for the many services and protocols it federated with. Diaspora*, OStatus, e-mail, RSS (in both directions), WordPress (with no plug-in in WordPress), Tumblr, Libertree, Twitter (!), even Facebook (!!!) for a few months before Facebook changed its TOS. Hubzilla took most of these connectors over.

Now comes some of what Hubzilla has on top, some of which is optional and has to be activated by the user:

WebDAV access for the file space
private CardDAV address book (I'm not kidding)
an additional system of private CalDAV calendars (yes, separate from the calendar inherited from Friendica)
long-form article writing using BBcode (and I'm not talking about posts, this is fully separate and a nice way of showing formatted text with embedded pictures to Mastodon users)
a wiki system based on BBcode and Markdown + a bit of HTML, allowing for multiple wikis (I'm still not kidding)
a simple webpage engine based on BBcode, Markdown and HTML

That's why Hubzilla is a "social CMS". You can do everything with it and then some, just pick what you need. The official Hubzilla website itself is a Hubzilla channel.

Speaking of which: One major organisational difference between Hubzilla and almost the entire rest of the Fediverse is that your content is not stored in your account. Hubzilla (when it was still young, in development and named Red Matrix) introduced a system of "channels". That's where your content goes.

When you register your first account, you automatically create a channel along with it. The channel is your home, your online identity. The account is only necessary to access the channel. You can have multiple channels on the same account, i.e. multiple fully separate identities with one login, and you can switch between them while logged in. Of course, on top of that, Hubzilla still has Friendica's feature of multiple profiles per channel (per account on Friendica) so that you can show the same identity to different connections in different ways and with different details.

The channel system became necessary for the introduction of another one of Hubzilla's killer features: nomadic identity. This goes way beyond account migration. Essentially, you can have the same channel on multiple hubs. Not independent, disconnected copies, but the exact same channel with the exact same content and even the exact same identity.

It works this way: When you register an account on another hub, and you already have a channel, you can choose to clone that channel to the new hub. Not only does this create an identical copy of your channel with everything in it. It also links the original ("primary instance") and the copy ("clone") together and makes sure they always stay in sync. So whatever happens to change on one instance is mirrored to the other one in near-real-time.

You can basically have as many clones as you want to have. If one instance goes down, the others continue to work. And if you have multiple channels, you can mirror them to separate hubs; you don't have to have all of them on the same hubs.

The ID is derived from the hub which the primary instance is on and includes its domain name. The primary hub can be switched if necessary, for example if your original primary hub will or has shut down. This will also change your ID accordingly. One downside is that you have to re-connect all your non-nomadic bidirectional connections (Mastodon, Lemmy, Diaspora*, Friendica etc.).

Last but not least, another nice feature introduced by Hubzilla is a single sign-on system called OpenWebAuth. When you're logged into any hub on which you have an account, and you visit any other Hubzilla hub or other website that supports OpenWebAuth, your login credentials are recognised, and you're treated like logged into that site, only that you obviously don't have all features you'd have with a local account. So you can post directly onto the "walls" of other Hubzilla channels, regardless of on which hubs they reside, but you can't create a channel without an account. Mastodon is said to plan to introduce OpenWebAuth, too.

There's another Fediverse project with nomadic identity, by the same developer yet again. The result of of a long and somewhat convoluted series of forks from Red Matrix which persisted beyond Hubzilla's stable release as an experimental platform.

The project itself is deliberately, intentionally nameless (!) and brandless. But since the code repository needed a name, it was named Streams. So the project is commonly being referred to as (streams), but most instances don't identify as that; they tend to have individual identifications and logos because these can be customised.

In comparison with Hubzilla, (streams) is cut down a lot, offering only Friendica-level "basics" and external federation only with ActivityPub which, on the other hand, is greatly improved.

The original idea behind (streams) is no longer to have a jack-of-all-trades that has all kinds of features imaginable and unimaginable readily built in for admins and then users to activate. This part of Hubzilla's concept made it rather unfit for specialised hubs because the hub admin first had to remove what was unnecessary.

(streams), on the other hand, is fairly bare-bone, and the idea is that creative admins capable of coding can and shall develop their own additions on top of it, ideally also share them. At the same time, (streams) gained some interesting new features such as additional Markdown and HTML support in posts.

Since (streams) is based on a newer version of Zot, now named Nomad, it federates with Hubzilla quite well, and both understand the other's nomadic features. It's even possible to mirror a Hubzilla channel to (streams) (minus the features that (streams) lacks, of course), but not the other way around.

2023-07-17 23:01:05

toasteranimation

toasteranimation@lemmy.world

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2023-07-17 23:09:36

Onurb

Onurb@lemmy.world

Wow how haven’t i heard of hubzilla before? Wow autocorrect doesn’t recognize it either? And thank you for the excellent write up.